Muskoka properties

[Larry]

Ontario has the worst planners on the planet, build condos to hold the people and put in more stop lights. Build a green zone to look good then send out an order for the citys to stack the people at 150 to 200 per acre outside of it

Have you seen Bucharest, or Budapest, or Prague, or any of the eastern European capitals? Their downtowns have been like that for years and years, so Ontario is kind of behind. I am not saying that this is good or it is OK, because it is not. But Ontario is not the worst, I have seen worse.
Larry

[Pfm1011]

Those citys are 3 and 4 storey for the most part. Not even close to the density of 400 per hectare.. Thats closer to Sao paulo levels

[Larry]

Bucharest downtown:

[speedfreeksteve]

Plenty of Florida properties (many of which are foreclosures) are about 20 to 25 cents on the dollar compared to 2005.. I know.. I just bought one that is closing tomorrow.

Cottage and land prices in cottage country have lowered modestly, but its doubtful they will go much lower if at all. The agents are busier this year than they have been in a long time. This means that the demand is quite healthy, even with the prices only lowered slightly compared to last year.

You still can't get a decent road accessible acre of land on the water for under 100k within 2.5 hours from Toronto, and the one's listed for anything close to that are getting snapped up in 1-2 weeks. Doesn't look like a collapsing market to me. Reminds me of when condos started selling for 150k in the city and some people balked. Now many of those condos are selling for 350-400k. What goes up doesn't necessarily have to go down when it comes to sought after real estate.

Twinn1 / Speed et al:

1.  Cottage prices will come down because of US mortgage financing problems. George Bush said it better
     then I ever could "Wall Street got drunk" .  We are still seeing the hangover like early in the morning
      after a good party.

 

[Pfm1011]

Larry 

 2007 Bucharest Population Density 26  people per hectare. but thats average for the city .

Those buildings are 9 and 10  storey  probably run about 75  to 100 max density average in the core. And those were created under communist dictatorship planners

MAXIMUM  Population Density in Prague 100 to 150 IN THE DENSEST district

http://www.ceroi.net/reports/prague/drivers/Population/maps.htm

 400 Per Hectare is INSANE and requires 30 plus storeys  and lined up side by side , One needs grass, roads, sidewalks and parking  in that calculation so 30 storeys may be a very low number

The Highest density in the world.....Mumbai India  295,   , If you have been there then you know being in hell would be a vacation from there  Of course New Delhi is 110 and is just as bad , Sao Paulo 90 , Hong kong 62

Present Toronto average is 27

 The highest downtown core is Hong Kong  DOWNTOWN at 465... Kowloon at 420
 

Prague downtown  ( 7 storey max)

[Pfm1011]

Largest cities in the world ranked by population density (1 to 125)
Rank City / Urban area Country Population Land area(in sqKm) Density(people per sqKm) ( divide by 100 for hectare) Blue are the been there /done that
 
1  Mumbai India 14,350,000 484    29,650
 2  Kolkata India 12,700,000 531    23,900
3  Karachi Pakistan 9,800,000 518    18,900
4  Lagos Nigeria 13,400,000 738     18,150
5  Shenzhen China 8,000,000 466     17,150
6  Seoul/Incheon South Korea 17,500,000 1,049   16,700
7  Taipei Taiwan 5,700,000 376       15,200
8  Chennai India 5,950,000 414     14,350
9  Bogota Colombia 7,000,000 518 13,500
10  Shanghai China 10,000,000 746 13,400
11  Lima Peru 7,000,000 596 11,750
12  Beijing China 8,614,000 748 11,500
13  Delhi India 14,300,000 1,295 11,050
14  Kinshasa Congo 5,000,000 469 10,650
15  Manila Philippines 14,750,000 1,399 10,550
16  Tehran Iran 7,250,000 686 10,550
17  Jakarta Indonesia 14,250,000 1,360 10,500
18  Tianjin China 4,750,000 453 10,500
19  Bangalore India 5,400,000 534 10,100
20  Ho Chi Minh City Vietnam 4,900,000 518 9,450
21  Cairo Egypt 12,200,000 1,295 9,400
22  Baghdad Iraq 5,500,000 596 9,250
23  Shenyang China 4,200,000 453 9,250
24  Hyderabad India 5,300,000 583 9,100
25  Sao Paulo Brazil 17,700,000 1,968 9,000
26  St Petersburg Russia 5,300,000 622 8,550
27  Mexico City Mexico 17,400,000 2,072 8,400
28  Santiago Chile 5,425,000 648 8,400
29  Singapore Singapore 4,000,000 479 8,350
30  Lahore Pakistan 5,100,000 622 8,200
31  Recife Brazil 3,025,000 376 8,050
32  Istanbul Turkey 9,000,000 1,166 7,700
33  Dalian China 2,750,000 389 7,100
34  Khartoum Sudan 4,000,000 583 6,850
35  Rio de Janeiro Brazil 10,800,000 1,580 6,850
36  Monterey Mexico 3,200,000 479 6,700
37  Bangkok Thailand 6,500,000 1,010 6,450
38  Osaka/Kobe/Kyoto Japan 16,425,000 2,564 6,400
39  Guadalajara Mexico 3,500,000 596 5,900
40  Athens Greece 3,685,000 684 5,400
41  Ankara Turkey 3,100,000 583 5,300
42  Madrid Spain 4,900,000 945 5,200
43  London UK 8,278,000 1,623 5,100
44  Tel Aviv Israel 2,300,000 453 5,050
45  Sapporo Japan 2,075,000 414 5,000
46  Buenos Aires Argentina 11,200,000 2,266 4,950
47  Moscow Russia 10,500,000 2,150 4,900
48  Barcelona Spain 3,900,000 803 4,850
49  Porto Alegre Brazil 2,800,000 583 4,800
50  Tokyo/Yokohama Japan 33,200,000 6,993 4,750
51  Belo Horizonte Brazil 4,000,000 868 4,600
52  Fortaleza Brazil 2,650,000 583 4,550
53  Warsaw Poland 2,000,000 466 4,300
54  Tashkent Uzbekistan 2,200,000 531 4,150
55  Naples Italy 2,400,000 583 4,100
56  Katowice Poland 2,200,000 544 4,050
57  Leeds/Bradford UK 1,499,000 370 4,050
58  Manchester UK 2,245,000 558 4,000
59  CapeTown South Africa 2,700,000 686 3,950
60  Fukuoka Japan 2,150,000 544 3,950
61  Taichung Taiwan 2,000,000 510 3,900
62  Baku/Sumqayit Azerbaijan 2,100,000 544 3,850
63  Curitiba Brazil 2,500,000 648 3,850
64  Birmingham UK 2,284,000 600 3,800
65  Berlin Germany 3,675,000 984 3,750
66  Riyadh Saudi Arabia 4,000,000 1,101 3,650
67  Campinas Brazil 1,750,000 492 3,550
68  Jeddah Saudi Arabia 2,750,000 777 3,550
69  Paris France 9,645,000 2,723 3,550
70  Durban South Africa 2,900,000 829 3,500
71  Vienna Austria 1,550,000 453 3,400
72  Accra Ghana 1,500,000 453 3,300
73  Glasgow UK 1,200,000 368 3,250
74  Nagoya Japan 9,000,000 2,875 3,150
75  Quito Ecuador 1,500,000 479 3,150
76  Donetsk Ukraine 1,400,000 451 3,100
77  Goiania Brazil 1,475,000 479 3,100
78  Munich Germany 1,600,000 518 3,100
79  Stuttgart Germany 1,250,000 414 3,000
80  Dublin Ireland 1,075,000 365 2,950
81  Kuwait Kuwait 1,600,000 544 2,950
82  Nizhni Novgorod Russia 1,500,000 505 2,950
83  Rome Italy 2,500,000 842 2,950
84  Phnom Phen Cambodia 1,500,000 518 2,900
85  Beirut Lebanon 1,800,000 648 2,800
86  Brasilia Brazil 1,625,000 583 2,800
87  Essen/D?sseldorf Germany 7,350,000 2,642 2,800
88  Lumumbashi Congo 1,200,000 427 2,800
89  Kuala Lumpur Malaysia 4,400,000 1,606 2,750
90  Los Angeles USA 11,789,000 4,320 2,750
91  Milan Italy 4,250,000 1,554 2,750
92  Pretoria South Africa 1,850,000 673 2,750
93  Stockholm Sweden 1,400,000 518 2,700
94  Turin Italy 1,350,000 500 2,700
95  Dubai UAE 1,900,000 712 2,650
96  Porto Portugal 1,035,000 389 2,650
97  Toronto Canada 4,367,000 1,655 2,650
98  Budapest Hungary 1,800,000 702 2,550
99  Lisbon Portugal 2,250,000 881 2,550
100  Johannesburg/East Rand South Africa 6,000,000 2,396 2,500
101  Rotterdam Netherlands 1,325,000 531 2,500
102  Harare Zimbabwe 1,750,000 712 2,450
103  Cologne/Bonn Germany 1,960,000 816 2,400
104  San Francisco/Oakland  USA 3,229,000 1,365 2,350
105  Frankfurt Germany 2,260,000 984 2,300
106  Hamburg Germany 1,925,000 829 2,300
107  San Jose USA 1,538,000 674 2,300
108  Arabia Saudi 1,525,000 673 2,250
109  Brussels Belgium 1,570,000 712 2,200
110  Lille France 1,050,000 474 2,200
111  Helsinki Finland 1,000,000 479 2,100
112  Port Elizabeth South Africa 900,000 427 2,100
113  Sydney Australia 3,502,000 1,687 2,100
114  New York USA 17,800,000 8,683 2,050
115  Auckland New Zealand 1,050,000 531 2,000
116  New Orleans USA 1,009,000 512 1,950
117  Copenhagen Denmark 1,525,000 816 1,850
118  Montreal. Canada 3,216,000 1,740 1,850
119  Honolulu USA 718,000 399 1,800
120  Las Vegas USA 1,314,000 741 1,750
121  Miami USA 4,919,000 2,891 1,700
122  Ottawa/Hull Canada 828,000 490 1,700
123  Vancouver Canada 1,830,000 1,120 1,650
124  Antwerp Belgium 915,000 596 1,550
125  Denver USA 1,985,000 1,292 1,550

[twinn1]

Most Eastern Europeans capitals are low to medium rise buildouts were a 15 floor building would be considered large, even the new developments are limited to 10 floors in many cases. Furthermore, there are a multide of "green areas" and historic sites.  The metro system(subway) system they have in those countries would put Toronto to shame, in each of those countries they have better subway systems in cities that are 100km outside of their capitals that would rival those of major US cities.

Toronto suffers from big city syndrome, the politicans think if they repeat the mantra that "toronto is a world class city" enough times it becomes real. On a world level Toronto is nothing.

Speed, I know that cottages are selling at a brisk pace this summer, I still hold that those prices will drop down to 2000-2002 levels, medium incomes have not increased in line with market values of cottages.  Basically it is inheritance and home equity increases that have driven cottage prices, if the RE market stalls in the GTA, those cottages will come down.  Canada will go downt the same route as the US. I still remeber the crash of 89, those that brought had to wait unti 2001 to break even, history repeats itself.  How many cottages were purchased with HELOC money from prime residents?

[Pfm1011]

"Speed, I know that cottages are selling at a brisk pace this summer, I still hold that those prices will drop down to 2000-2002 levels, medium incomes have not increased in line with market values of cottages.  Basically it is inheritance and home equity increases that have driven cottage prices, if the RE market stalls in the GTA, those cottages will come down.  Canada will go down the same route as the US. I still remember the crash of 89, those that brought had to wait until 2001 to break even, history repeats itself.  How many cottages were purchased with HELOC money from prime residents"

We can sit all day and talk about this, I don't think we will every get an agreement. I think it was last February / March where me and Steve argued about this..  I figure I would wait till next Feb and hit Steve will a " I told you so"  Of course if they don't drop as bad as I think I will make simply up an excuse ..something about the US election and the reduction of oil to $ 84 a barrel etc etc just so I don't have to admit I was wrong

This is a wait and see

 As per Toronto not being a world class city....Understatement of the year.. The city is boring, has wiped out any possible chance of being nice by condoing the Sh*t out of everything. Has done nothing to improve itself or its infrastructure.   The "planning" Is entirely based on profit ( public and Private)  Toronto Airport has no rapid transit system, The harbourfront is a concrete sh*thole  and the transportation network is totally gridlocked and has been for 30 years .  There has been absolutely no planning done in that city for 50 years.   You can drive from Stoney Creek to Oshawa and it is just concrete.Any interesting district they had are being condo'd

 You want world class potential..Montreal .. Probably the only city in Canada that actually has planning and isn't ruled by tax base. They actually think about lifestyle of the citizens, Not just tax grabbing.

The most pathetic part of all this is we have more acreage per person than any country in the world and we pack them in like cattle and virtually no parks or greenspaces in Toronto .  The only way Toronto will ever show any style is to fill in the harbour and turn it into a giant park . They also need to put a 5 Storey Maximum on all new building ( like that will happen)    They say don't use a car but the rapid transit is a joke.

Oakville is building North of 5, Completely new city and they have planned it all  ( or not planned) where it is still car required to get anything . The have 18 soccer fields, sounds great, All in one park..WTF??  So everyone has to drive to it. Didn't consider nine parks spread around with 2 fields each so kids could actually walk to the game and people could actually have grass.And needless to say they didn't consider traffic circles so we don't have to sit at stop lights every 500 ft. 

We have to get away from the big city mentality, People want to live in smaller community's.  Take a look at England. The cities are built up of little hamlets which hub around the city core. Lots of green space between the hamlets.  Newcastle proper has a population of 180K yet the greater metro area is actually 900K .  which all use the downtown for nightlife , museums etc.  And its not well planned by British standards but way better then this dive.

London is a mess ( something about 1000 years ) but its still way better then Toronto and can get around the city no problem without a car. The only highrises are council flats which are ghettos and are being phased out. The London Bridge Tower hopefully will fail but if it doesn't it is one interesting piece that will stand out with style.

We are going opposite and stuffing all the people in the core of Toronto and destroying it so noone wants to come to the city due to the concrete jungle.   When a developer comes to town with a plan for a 70 storey skyscraper. Don't shake his hand..run him out of town..send him packing back to New York.


Canadian Mayors and Planners are only concerned with increased Tax base  ( and salaries for themselves) and could care less about the lifestyle of Citizens.   


Rant rant rant

[speedfreeksteve]

PFM, maybe you should actually visit Toronto sometime. Toronto is one of the top cities in the world for amount of green space. The total size of all parks alone in Toronto is bigger than most medium sized cities. If you're in a decent part of Toronto (and there's lots of them) you'll see that the average lot size is bigger than most new developments in the GTA, and that there's huge parks all over the city. People seem to only point out the worst and ignore anything good about somewhere that they don't live. Anyways, how about we leave the Toronto bashing to a new thread, this one is supposed to be about Muskoka.

As for the cottage prices, I don't see a corelation with median incomes. Prices weren't exactly growing at a huge pace in the 90's when incomes were shooting up like crazy. We've had two bear markets in 9 years and that's never happened before and prices haven't dropped much anywhere in Ontario (except Windsor and Oshawa).

The price of oil isn't going to change things much easier. Most properties were worth about the same as they are now when oil was $80/barrel. But who knows, the only rule in real estate is "anything can happen".

[Larry]

I totally agree about Toronto. As I said, I have seen much worse.

[Pawel]

PFM, As an urban planner myself working both public and private sectors, it is unfortunate to see people think this way of the profession. Most planners WANT to see change and encourage different built forms of the environment, but we are limited by the existing rules and policies that we have in Ontario. And for the record, Toronto is considered a world-class city and one of the best cities in North America; you should read up on some of the planning documents that have come into effect in the past decade. It is pretty interesting.

[sonic]

PFM, As an urban planner myself working both public and private sectors, it is unfortunate to see people think this way of the profession. Most planners WANT to see change and encourage different built forms of the environment, but we are limited by the existing rules and policies that we have in Ontario. And for the record, Toronto is considered a world-class city and one of the best cities in North America; you should read up on some of the planning documents that have come into effect in the past decade. It is pretty interesting.

Pfm is bang on.  The City sells off it's land for cheap to condo developers or to MLSE.  Tear down the Gardiner to revitalize the harbourfront or to build more condos.  Toronto is for sale to the condo developers.  For example from March 08:

"The city has decided to sell a prime piece of land on the Bloor St. W. strip for a bargain price and expects the property to be flipped quickly to allow a 100-metre condo tower on the site. After a closed-door session, city council voted 28-4 yesterday to accept the original offer of $3.38 million made by McDonald's for the site the restaurant chain occupies with a cheap 99-year lease, across from the Royal Ontario Museum. Local councillor Adam Vaughan said he understands that McDonald's plans to resell the land to Kazakhstan-based developer Bazis International Inc., which is building an 80-storey condo building down the street at 1 Bloor and already owns the lot adjacent to McDonald's. The chain would get a new restaurant in the building as part of the deal. Just two weeks ago, a blue-ribbon panel that examined the city's books concluded Toronto could do a better job of managing its massive real estate portfolio, and said the city could realize an extra $150 million a year from asset sales"

world class city that doesn't have a direct link of subway to the airport?  Build ROW streetcar lines instead of subways because they're cheaper but the streets aren't wide enough to support the ROW causing big car traffic snarls when a lane is taken away from traffic and then you won't be able to drive, but they expect everyone to take the streetcar???  Not to mention zoning propane refill stations beside residential -good planning.

rant rant rant...
 

[Pfm1011]

Pawel. I realize as a planner you are handed 1 acre by the city and told stuff 200 people. The places to grow program is a 20 year plan ( bandaid) designed to deal with a population increase which will be brought on by the plan ( build it and they will come) If you dont build the houses they will move to where they are being built. So we can build up any area we want, why stuff it in existing areas. ..Unfortuately what we are left with after 20 years is a disaster..show me a hundred year plan then Im impressed.  Cant show me as there isnt one.  20 years from now we will have a mess on our hands.

As a Planner can you agree with the places to grow program ?, From a economic point of view its great for the province as it packs people in on existing infrastructure,  but from a human point of view its simply stuffing more taxpayers  into a small lot at the expense of lifestyle of the existing residents. Who in the world wants to live in densitys between 200 to 400 per hectare.  How can that plan do anything but mean concrete slums 20 years from now as the buildings age and people with any money move out .  Do you want your children raised in areas like that??  Apartment buildings have absolutely no redeeming qualitys and never improve as they get older.  They are eyesores and destroy anything in their shadow. Apartments are only good for stacking up single people and aged.  They are for people who cant afford a house or physically cant maintain one. Noone dreams of someday "raising my children in a 27th floor , two bedroom, with a concrete playground"


Exempt for high end "brownstones"  Townhouse projects just turn to sh*tholes over the years.

Anything above 3 or 4 storeys is a poor standard of living for the residents and surrounding area.

I know several citys are opposing the program. Niagara for example likes the fact that they a person can buy a detached for less then the price of  townhouse in Burlington and has no interest in packing people in.

We have massive amounts of real estate in this country and there is no reason we have to pack them in other then to allow the government to milk more taxes out per foot at the expense of lifestyle of the citizens.

Ontario planning is just bandaiding and stuffing people into anywhere they can.

Citys have this belief that they have to grow and continue to increase in population. Why does Oakville have to add 40K new houses? The only purpose is to increase tax base however the new taxes are simply used to pay for the new infrastructure for the 40K new houses but always falls short so mil rate goes up. As per maintaining present and increasing facilitys to existing, we are on a market value system so the Mayors have had anywhere from 7 to 15% annual increase in revenue with a 2% inflation rate. The city coffers should be overflowing. Instead they are always empty and mil rates creap up. People bitch about mil rate increases but no one notices that with market value your actual taxes increase 10% a year without even a Milrate increase

The only good move the province has done is the Green zone but unfortunately the Places to Grow will make life in the city absolute sh*t . Highrises in Downtown Guelph and Milton, Peterborough etc  , how is this good planning for a future? Subdivisions  and smaller communitys around those areas can lead to very  nice lifestyle provided they are planned right.

We are building electric trains to go into Toronto but at the same time economics has business moving out and the condos stuffing people into the downtown core instead of business thereby reducing the need for the trains. Meanwhile we dont build the highspeed trains linking Montreal Ottawa Toronto and London as the plan was 20 years ago.  ( Pearson was to be scaled down and London and Mirabel airports were to be a  overseas arrivals ports linked  with highspeed train.   Should we not be concentrating on building up the smaller towns with Live work?  North Americans are the only people who drive over  1 hour to work. Any european thinks we are insane to commute like we do. Live in Wasaga, Commute to Toronto for work WTF??? There is absolutely no reason to travel more then 15 minutes to work in Todays society. Gone are the days where you had to go to a Tower in Downtown. The commuters on the Go train are dinosaurs and there should be a twenty year plan to fade out (Converting) the office towers in Toronto as they make no economic sense.  We are building a hundred ( over 100)condo towers  downtown to feed the office buildings which are dinosaurs and then we will build more office towers due to all the condos downtown need  a place to work.  Concrete jungle.    There is  absolutely no business in todays society that needs to be Downtown and businesses are moving out due to costs and lifestyle for the employees. No business is thinking of moving its headquarters into Toronto, they are all moving out.

Montreal had it right with Mirabel exempt the idiots never built the train that was supposed to go direct to downtown Montreal and Ottawa as called for in the original plan. The line would have allowed many small towns along the corridor.

We want Utopia but are planning Bladerunner

For the record I have held residence in  Toronto , Montreal , Madrid, London , Stockholm , Bangkok, Newcastle, Manchester and with the exception of Bangkok,  Toronto is the worst planned and most resident unfriendly of all of them and clearly has no long term vision 
(Need a bigger soapbox to rant from)

[Sasha]

Read both pages.  How did the topic go from Muskoka to 'trashing T.O planners'.  I agree babyboomers did and may still move up north, many will buy condos.  When you're retired and not too healthy, nice to be near a hospital.  Cottage?  If you want something to leave to your kids or grandkids, or want to them to visit you more often, lakes are good at winning your family's heart. 
Dave 2, you're a very smart man, selling all your mutual funds, I should've sold mine.  Been looking at fund values, U.S and Canadian.  In 2001 and 2002, when the funds that were doing well before Jan 2008 weren't doing well, a few U.S funds doing well then (in 01 and 02 when the top movers of 05, 06, 07 were way down). (Inversely related).  Also saved a copy on my hard drive the article in the star a few weeks ago, comparing real estate values and TSX performance (positve correlation - not sure if my terminology is correct, except for a few bubbles-peaks) since 1969.  Still a few profitable areas in GTA, North Pickering up?  Whodathunkit?  Markam stagnating??  It was so popular a few years ago.  Location, location, location.  Are we guessing the next 'boom' location?  Not to mention farmland going up, not to be rezoned and build subdivisions but to actually harvest crops which Wall Street and the Middle East are eyeing?
Muskoka properties?  Expensive? Yes, and will probably hold value.  At a tax sale?  Probably go very high (if they aren't landlocked), though I think not any of the properties are on the water, one is zoned 'waterfront residential' but I think there is no water frontage and there is no public road to it.  Speaking of 1989, the property values peaked then and  the ones that went down significantly were the condos and the properties outside Toronto core (from 1991 till 1997 and if adjusted for inflation, still haven't reached 89 values, slightly above '89 if not adjusted for inflation).   Whats happening in Oshawa?  Read about the GM plant closure.  In northern Ontario, we still drive hummers, gotta have a vehicle larger than most of the moose that sometimes cross the road.

Wanted to join your topic, but don't want to trash T.O planners, thought I'd talk about everything.  A direct quote from many doodle friends (americans) 'Toronto is such a clean and well planned city, preserving the old as well as adding new modern structures, doesn't seem anywhere near as crowded as New York City and its the 'little apple'.  These guys think the Distillary District is 'awesome'.

[markymark]

thanks farrouk for the laugh of the day.
i think the landlocked piece may be the best piece,if you have a quad.