Madoc - 1 - Lets get real for a minute

[Dave2]

I have said before some of the numbers that have been mentioned for this property don't make sense.  Leave aside the issues outlined in Madoc 2 and Madoc 3 threads; remember also the property is occupied. (Madoc 4 anyone)

Back to basics lets look at a realistic value.  We can't look at the building but we can consider the land value.   Here is a current listing of major riverfront property - 3600 ft (almost a kilometer) ; not contaminated like the Moira from a well known local realtor.

http://www.century21.ca/bob.bancroft/Property/ON/K0K_2K0/TWEED/LINGHAM_LAKE_RD/0

It has cabins and everything. Regular real estate sale.  $600 an acre asking price.   This is not the only one.   And you were going to bid how much for the tax property; with all of the problems?

[jima]

Hi All,
Here are a few personal observations about what is going on with Madoc. Again, I wasn't trying to give false information or misleading info. I was merely putting out some info I had heard about the area. I was pretty specific that all this was alleged and I'm sorry if people had to drive out of their way to check it out (at least you got to kill some time).  I may have been off on the #?s (acres vs. hectares) but the fact is there was a large chunk of land sold for a substantial amount of money just west of the tax sale land. This might be of interest to some on the board. I thought it good to get that info out.  I'm not interested in purchasing in the area (if anyone does have any info on the large Frontenac piece that just got tax sold they can PM me?I would be interested in hearing about it) but others might.
I still think the alleged Longyear sale's math doesn't make sense or there is more at work here?  Even at the most extreme case for their purchase- 12,000 hectares/ or 30,000 acres which Dave2 has said is more accurate (I'm not sure is this is accurate- the whole township is only 72,000 acres- the North West corner is only 14,000 acres (Barker Road north- Hwy 62 east) but let's use it for arguments sake.
12,000 hectares = 30,000 acres
17,000,000 (million sale Price.allegedly)
=$570/ acre for raw land??should there have been a deeper discount for such a large purchase?.is there more at play?.not just timber rights?
If there is a mistake with the 0?s (which I think) in the above example then that # rises dramatically. I'm not saying this is accurate, right or even happened. I'm not sure what/if any other lands where included. Again, this is way out of my league as well (I'm not even interested in betting netpred for Beers!). It is info that might be valuable to some or not.
I also made reference to the large chuck of land even further west (but not across Hwy 62) that is for sale.  I offered it as info on the weirdness's on what is going on in the area. The large chunk is currently listed and being marketed for Jr. Mining companies. http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=11046861&PidKey=-1356463688  As I said I?m not sure I've ever heard of someone trying to sell a potential mine on MLS.
How much is the tax sale land?? No idea??especially?..if you can't get the kid playing the banjo on the porch out of the house/ shack. Is there any correlation at all??? I'm not sure? Does it matter if it gets redeemed (as netpred says) anyway. It least it gives us all more information.
Again, I only offered my info as background and some info for members of the forum. It at least got some people thinking during the dog days of winter.

Happy Bidding.
Jima

[Pfm1011]

570/ acre for raw land??should there have been a deeper discount for such a large purchase


It is actually an increase in cost per acre for large purchases as large holdings are very rare and therefore a premium applys.  5 years or so ago I went after 1000 acres of shield with ep protection north of kingston . There was no potential for any development, mining or timber .  .Had 80 acre lake and 3 to 400 worth of viceroy .   It was strictly for a family camp.  It sold for 2950 an acre .  

Try to find 1500 acres..good luck .....  Picture the ratio like a diamond  10 carat diamonds are 50 times the value of 1 carat

You cannot use the value of longyear purchase as any reference for this land. Apples to oranges,Diamond to Coal.  150 acre pieces are a dime a dozen especially in this area . , actually asking is the 500 an acre range and that is ASKS    We also have no knowledge of Mine/timber value which this piece has no value other then recreational

You will note that Domtar only paid 387 in 1996 so I suspect that the 17 million is for multiple pieces thoughout the province. If the deal included 10 pieces in the province, each piece would show the 17 mil as the sale price . Values for portfolio purchases are not broken down on the land registry

update

In just Hasting County alone there is  207  active  pieces owned by Longyear and most if not all are part of the that purchase  on 5/27/2011. I am guessing this goes into tens of thousands of acres. I have no idea how many more pieces in the province. If you have access, search J.M. LONGYEAR  in hastings alone, you will get an idea of the scope of the Domtar portfolio purchase.

[jima]

Thanks for the info. You learn something new every day! I didn't realize that land registry lumps everything together and it doesn't get broken down at least a little bit. You wonder what Revenue Canada does if they sell off portions and don't have a amount assigned to a specific piece of property. I do know that they are pulling a lot of wood out of there this winter, maybe that's why Dave2 was slipping and sliding all over the place.
The 1000 acres wasn't near Kaladar was it? I looked at about 700 acres a few years ago but its price definitely wasn't near the price/ acre you are talking about.
Thanks again all the constructive info on the board.

[Dave2]

The 1000 acres wasn't near Kaladar was it? I looked at about 700 acres a few years ago but its price definitely wasn't near the price/ acre you are talking about.
Thanks again all the constructive info on the board.

Jima:

Most of the property I was referring to I believe was on the north side of Bannockburn road about halfway in between 62 highway and island road.  I  did not bother to mark it with any accuracy because I was mainly trying to see if there was some industrial activity like a mining company headframe, that would account for the high valuation.  Given Domtar's extensive holdings it would not surprise me that they also have land around Kaladar.  


One thing to recognize is that the Domtar Trenton mill has been based on recycled fiber I believe for 30 plus years so there maybe considerable timber value that would skew normal valuations.   Certainly Longyear / Domtar would have taken that into account when the sale was negotiated.

The one I illustrated around Sault St. Marie had $3,000,000 in timber value alone.  

Of more note I did not see anything spectacular on the tax sale property from a timber perspective although it was difficult to view given all the slip sliding around. 

[jima]

My mistake......I'll figure out the proper way to respond to threads sometime . My question referring to the Kaladar land was in reference to the land Pfm1011 was talking about in his post about the land north of Kingston not the tax sale land which I have good knowledge of it's location.

[Pfm1011]

The piece I was referring to was hewlett packard rd  on North shore rd  longborough lake. It was Hewlett packards old employee retreat but they had to sell  all the retreats due to potential shareholder lawsuits in the US .  I was p*ssed we didnt get it but I was beat by almost  a million.  1088 acres  20 minutes to kingston harbour'  Plowed rds and electricity    This turned into a penis size competition among the kingston business community

LT pins  
36284-0243
36290-0303

The buyer then "donated it" to a land trust thereby leaving his actual cost to be below my bid while still having full use  ..tricky devil ...I was very impressed by that move

RE Longyear   In regards to Revenue Canada and the break down of portfolio , The buyers assign a value in the books for each piece and deal with capital gains accordingly . It just the land reg doesnt require a breakdown

[baller50]

wasn't me:)

This should get interesting down to the wire...

[g2020]

As usual when something looks too good to be true, it is! The Madoc.ca website has been updated to show that the valuable property has been redeemed - an almost 5,000 square foot home completed in 2008 is not the sort of property that does not get redeemed. PFM1011 was once again called the outcome correctly.

[Dave2]

It's cases like this that remind me why I should not get religious.  I hate redemptions. 

Oh well it could be worse.  He could have waited until 10 minutes before the bids were called. 

I just wonder what would have happened if people did not go up that laneway and in effect tipped him off. 

[Pfm1011]

. PFM1011 was once again called the outcome correctly.

Me and everyone else....Im just glad he did it now.  Tuesday would have been more money on title searches and then money orders  courier etc etc .  If he had waited till tuesday I would have lost 2 or 3 hours and a hundred or two in expenses just to put in a low ball  bid that would have been slaughtered  by others on the board

As per people notifying the owner by visiting the land......This is one case where that made no difference  whatsoever .there was 10 or 11 people notified by the town, 3 mortgage holders, several owners. the crews that built the house , trent conservation and town employees ... Nothing anyone did was going to make a difference on how this was playing out... If someone did actually get stuck ..they were bloody lucky to get out of there without salt pellets in their ass

[g2020]

Have you noticed that the OTS site still does not show it as redeemed? Not even a tweet or twitter
And I think on Monday in Canada the banks, municipal office and land registry are closed for family day, just as they are here for President's Day. That makes it incredibly tight, and anyone who buys their searches from OTS would have had to have ordered already with no chance of a refund. I also notice that Mississauga wants 25 bucks per property upfront, and unlike Oakville last time, the make it very clear that in the case of a redemption you can kiss your money good bye.

[netpred]

Have you noticed that the OTS site still does not show it as redeemed? Not even a tweet or twitter
And I think on Monday in Canada the banks, municipal office and land registry are closed for family day, just as they are here for President's Day. That makes it incredibly tight, and anyone who buys their searches from OTS would have had to have ordered already with no chance of a refund.

Hmm, makes me wonder if this is just slow (OTS usually has the info first and is proud of that fact) or perhaps maybe a bit of self interest at play here. I mean nobody ever orders searches for properties that have redeemed.

My guess, OTS is just slow - what do you guys think?

[Pfm1011]

you certainly think OTS are evil...a few years back I ordered a search from them and the property redeemed that morning ..they didnt do the search and didnt charge me..

You certainly see OTS as the devil....never seem to go after tri-target . As linda at tri-target is an ex partner/ex-employee (not sure which)  of OTS (the devil).. would she not be by default also evil...  sort of vampira or something..just a thought

Has tri-target actually managed to get any taxsales for themselves?  I dont recall seeing them in any gazette ads etc  http://www.t-taxteam.ca/

[Dave2]

My guess, OTS is just slow - what do you guys think?

It is a long holiday weekend and maybe someone took a vacation.

I think we should count our blessings not our problems.  Think of the alternative about Madoc if
G2020 had not caught it in time for us to avoid having a 5 hour round trip drive from Toronto.

For those of you that have to get out in the country and need an excuse; OTS has replaced Madoc with waterfront and waterview tax sale properties that you can drive to in half the time, and no real problems in winter driving other then get your car muddy.  You can even see both easily from the road.

If people can just layoff contacting the owner; these certainly pass the smell test of properties that you expect to be up for tax sale, and legitimately look like they may not redeem as long as someone is not stupid.

At least one person may qualify for that overdue beer(s) I owe him.      

Of course the die hard city dwellers will have to make do with Mississauga that Rob highlighted for us.  

Lets not complain; compared to pre internet life is good but unfortunately much more competitive.