Site: OntarioTaxSales--Charges BIG fees for Townships to post Pictures {:^(

[netpred]

I have said what I wanted as you and others have. This is a public forum and if OTS/Real Tax wishes to speak, they can. If not, so be it.

Time to move on and look for some new listings.

[netpred]

I just noticed that our newest member is OTS Jeff. The email suggests that this is legit and not an imposter. Welcome!

Jeff, it is not my intention to run your company down. Please engage in this forum and answer any legit questions or issues that we may have. I for one look forward to your imput. It may also be good for your business.

[Les Pisrael]

Not off topic but related.
If you been following USA's major media (print/TV) since 9/II , Anthrax attacks and the 3 invasions (Iraq, Afghastain,Pakistan), yoy'd come to the conclusion that Media is a  paid whore for Government.Most Americans beLIEve most of what media tells them--Arabs did 9/II and Iraq/Saddam had WMD.
 With OTS--the same problem arises--Government pays OTS for publishing photos and locations for selected few municipal townships, while others you have to join for information  and searchs at  HIGH fees . Banners atop sucker new comers--what they missed--never to include a blog or at least tell--land is SWAMP or regulated or had Fed.income tax liens.(very dangerous Fed liens)
-TSP is open to public comments and deserves recognition of reputable and not a government hack like OTS
 Many properties that are listed for Tax sales are dogs.Be very carefully in how OTS packages them--nothing is free from them--at the end--someone pays for the extra cost.Who is the loser--the mortgage holders or the liens placed on the property.Prior to the property being listed as a tax sale--township notifies all lien holders registered on title. After the sales is completed the township collects the arrears and sends the rest to the lien holders.If none liens--all gravey for the town. And do they pad the tax arrears amount-you'd be shocked to know what is added!

[netpred]

Not off topic but related.
If you been following USA's major media (print/TV) since 9/II , Anthrax attacks and the 3 invasions (Iraq, Afghastain,Pakistan), yoy'd come to the conclusion that Media is a  paid whore for Government.Most Americans beLIEve most of what media tells them--Arabs did 9/II and Iraq/Saddam had WMD.
 With OTS--the same problem arises--Government pays OTS for publishing photos and locations for selected few municipal townships, while others you have to join for information  and searchs at  HIGH fees . Banners atop sucker new comers--what they missed--never to include a blog or at least tell--land is SWAMP or regulated or had Fed.income tax liens.(very dangerous Fed liens)
-TSP is open to public comments and deserves recognition of reputable and not a government hack like OTS
 Many properties that are listed for Tax sales are dogs.Be very carefully in how OTS packages them--nothing is free from them--at the end--someone pays for the extra cost.Who is the loser--the mortgage holders or the liens placed on the property.Prior to the property being listed as a tax sale--township notifies all lien holders registered on title. After the sales is completed the township collects the arrears and sends the rest to the lien holders.If none liens--all gravey for the town. And do they pad the tax arrears amount-you'd be shocked to know what is added!

So how does this post help the conversation? It helps to stick to facts as much as possible. I want OTS to engage here but posts like yours are inflammatory and serve no positive purpose.

Sorry.

[Frank]

Netpred

Obviously, you are correct and Real Tax can speak for themselves. 

However, your logic absolutely blows my mind.  Municipalities can do it themselves or hire it out...in either case they recover their costs through the sale...it can legally be added as part of the cancellation fee, when someone redeems their property at the last minute - they pay the costs of having put the municipality through the hoops with their delinquency.  I as a tax payer would be very upset if I found out that I were paying for that.  As for environmental costs, those are normally added by the MOE after they have done a major clean-up of a toxic site...they have the power to do that, and I as an Ontario that wants these sites cleaned, I thank them.  On occasion you will find other Municipal charges such as weed cutting, or by-law charges such as boarding up of abandoned properties...again they have the right to do that type of thing to protect us, vacant properties that are open to the public can become rather bad places.

When Real Tax acts for the municipality in preparing and registering a deed...how are they possibly acting for you?  If the Municipal lawyer does it, he is doing exactly the same thing - the Legislation requires the Municipality to prepare and register a deed in you name...how (or whom) they do it is academic.   Again, your logic is somewhat flawed my friend.  There is no bogey-man here.

 

[netpred]

Frank:

I understand that municipalites can and do charge fees to the tax bill. The $800 or so does not make any significant difference. If not Real Tax, then a lawyer would charge the municiplity. This is fine.

[Frank]

I may be mistaken that the LSUC rules require seperate representation. The Land Registration Reform Act provides for certain exemptions for conveyances from Federal, Provincial or Municipal governments. So I am not absolutely sure, but one lawyer might be able to register for both on tax sales.

However, I would like clarification on a number of other issues, for example, HST. Does OTS have an opinion from a tax expert? I would like to know the reasons for charging HST. The tax may very well apply in certain situations but I would like to know why I am paying this tax.

I think that it can be advantageous for OTS / Real Tax to become active in this forum. I know that I for one would welcome their participation.

I'm pretty sure that I covered this off in a previous post, but here it is again.  Several years ago, I purchased three tax sale properties in one year...two municipalities let me off the hook with gst (these were all vacant cottage properties by the way).  One insisted I had to pay up the 5% (at that time)...I got mad, and went the CRA for an advance ruling. 

They classify these types of sales as forfeitures, and in this case they deem that municipality has (if only for an instant) taken possession of the property, and you are not buying from the previous owner and there it cannot be claimed as tax exempt by way of a person use property.  There was a court case in Quebec just prior to this which they proved their point.

Some municipalities still haven't awakened to this requirement.  If they get audited by the CRA they will have to pony up the tax. 

p.s  once you have paid the tax, you can always apply to the feds for a refund and see what you get.

[netpred]

p.s  once you have paid the tax, you can always apply to the feds for a refund and see what you get.
[/quote]

How?

As an aside, then if this logic is correct, why does Real Tax tell municipalities to not charge HST where there is an existing residential building? In neither case can the municipality validly claim a personal use exemption, or am I mistaken?

Also, do you have the citation for the Quebec case? Any other details regarding the ruling in your situation would be helpful and much appreciated.

[Pfm1011]

Wow ... I slag off OTS due to their making it too easy for idiots to come to the table. I also am totally pissed that they are listing data on parcel which they are not paid to market..Sticking their nose where it doesn't belong  ...however...

Should OTS  respond....absolutely not as nothing good can come from it..they will be slaughtered by internet idiots including some on here who have claimed to be lawyers but are completely full of sh*t

Do they make false claims..absolutely not. I have not seen them make any claims or statements on the property condition IE dirty or clean..If  someone is too stupid to check ..sorry about your luck.  OTS cannot make any statement as they can be sued by the winner or the old owner if they make any statement that effects the value either plus or minus.  

OTS fees effect the sale price....You could only bitch if you

  A: are the property owner and you could argue that the costs are excessive and get them reduced

  B  Are the township and the site did not sell as the minimum was too high due to their fees.

 As a purchaser, you have no right to bitch, and in reality what pieces actually sell for minimum??Only the junk


They are violating LSUC rules.....They aren't lawyers so LSUC has no authority over them  ( Not like LSUC would actually do anything even if they were breaking rules)

The ultimate message to them is to not use them.   Additionally I stand to be corrected but the calculation of the minimum should be public information so you should be able to get the fees charged by them fairly easily


And new sites coming...great , more assholes at the party

[Frank]

Can't seem to locate it quickly, but I know it is out there...Rev Can. pointed it out to me.  Here's a helpful site you might want to visit.  http://www.plzlaw.com/blog/index.php/2010/06/11/understanding-municipal-tax-sales-everything-and-anything-you-need-to-know/

You can file an appeal to Rev Can and hope that they buy your arguement as to why you consider the property to be tax exempt.

PFM...all that OTS has done, for its paying memebers, is to provide information on all tax sales, not just the ones listed with them....just as Rob has done with this forum...you get what you pay for??

p.s  once you have paid the tax, you can always apply to the feds for a refund and see what you get.

How?

As an aside, then if this logic is correct, why does Real Tax tell municipalities to not charge HST where there is an existing residential building? In neither case can the municipality validly claim a personal use exemption, or am I mistaken?

Also, do you have the citation for the Quebec case? Any other details regarding the ruling in your situation would be helpful and much appreciated.
[/quote]

[OTS Jeff]

Hello, my name is Jeff Oberman.  I?m the founder and president of both Realtax and OntarioTaxSales.ca (?OTS?). 

There are a number of issues and questions in the recent string of posts that deal with my companies.  I will address all of them.  But rather than one long post, I?ll break it in to a number of relatively short posts.  I probably won't be able to deal with all the issues today.  In this post I'll address the issue of GST/HST. 

Back in 2004 I asked Realtax's lawyer to provide us with guidance on when and if a municipality should charge GST on a tax sale.  Our lawyer worked with us to come up with a detailed letter to the Canada Revenue Agency ("CRA").  This letter gave details of the applicable legislation, and requested that CRA provide us with a ruling on if GST had to be paid on a tax sale property.

CRA replied to our lawyer in 2005, with a six-page letter.  Here's the gist of that letter:
A municipality must charge GST on a tax sale property, unless either:
1.   It is the resale of a residential property.  That means that there must be a house or some other kind of residence on the property, and the property has been sold before with a residence on it (if it?s the first time the property has been sold with a residence on it, it wouldn't be a resale of a residential property).

Please note that land that is zoned residential, but does not have an actual house or some other residence on it, does not qualify as a residential property for the purposes of GST.

Or,

2.   The purchaser is a GST registrant (meaning that they have a valid GST number) and they supply the municipality with their GST number and the required paperwork to indicate that they will ?self-assess? and remit the GST themselves.

Unless either #1 or #2 is true, GST must be charged on a tax sale property

We have been advised that with regard to tax sales, the rules for HST are the same as they were for GST. 

[netpred]

Jeff:

Welcome and thank you for your post. I am sure that you and I may not agree on all issues but I for one would like to keep our discussions civil and factually correct. I continue to be of the view that your company costs me money but this is simply reality and part of the game. I suggest that we all extend this same courtesy to Jeff. It is important that we have the means to address concerns about OTS and and it is also, I believe, equally important for Jeff to address any misconceptions that may exist. You have also earned my respect for becoming involved here.

I will deal with the HST issue. I plan on taking a run at CCRA on this point. I have retained the services of a prominent but semi-retired GST (as it then was) expert. He has some good ideas. I will let you know how things work out. In the meantime, would you be kind enough to help me out by providing (via pm) further details of the GST ruling - perhaps a copy of the ruling or where I can get it. You can edit out any information that you wish. I would also appreciate some more information on the information that you have on the HST.

Thanks.

PS - I always have to edit my posts because of spelling errors. I will try to use spell check in the future.

[OTS Jeff]

netpred:

With regard to further info about the ruling from CRA, we'll get something about this up on OTS in the next couple of days.  I'll let everyone know when this has been done.

To help clear up any misconceptions about what Realtax does, here's some info:

Tax Registrations
Before a municipality can advertise a property for tax sale, it must conduct a procedure commonly called tax registration.  This is part of the work that Realtax does for municipalities.  Here's a very brief overview of what's included in a tax registration:

Prepare and send notices under the Farm Debt Mediation Act
Deal with any questions or concerns the municipality may have, every step of the way
Conduct a title search and execution search
Analyze the searches to determine a proper legal description of the property and a list of who has an interest in the property; deal with any possible discrepancies between searches and assessment roll
Prepare a tax arrears certificate
Have the tax arrears certificate registered on title
Update the title search and execution search
Prepare Notice of Registration of Tax Arrears Certificate (commonly called a first notice) for each party who has an interest in the property
Send these notices by registered mail, within 60 days of the registration of the tax arrears certificate
Prepare a Treasurers Statutory Declaration Regarding Sending of Notice and have it executed
If the taxes remain unpaid 280 days after the tax arrears certificate was registered, prepare Final Notices and send them to the interested parties by registered mail, within 30 days
Track the foregoing statutory deadlines and ensure that they are complied with
If the taxes remain unpaid 1 year after the tax arrears certificate was registered, prepare a Treasurers Statutory Declaration Regarding Sending of Final Notice and have it executed
Begin tax sale procedures

Tax Sales
Send Mining Act information to Ministry of Northern Development and Mines, if required
Prepare Treasurer's Statutory Declaration, advertisement for tax sale, tender packages, notices to Higher Tenderer and Lower Tenderer, Successful Purchaser form
Be available to answer any questions, especially at the time the tenders are opened or the auction is conducted
Prepare Tax Deed or Notice of Vesting or Acknowledgement and Direction, and Land Transfer Tax Affidavit
Register deed or Notice of Vesting, send to municipality with ?PAYMENT INTO COURT? documents
Send copies of ?PAYMENT INTO COURT-STATEMENT OF FACTS? to Interested Parties and Public Trustee

The above work takes a great deal of time, and a great deal of specialized expertise.  The fees that Realtax charges to its clients are reasonable, and are competitive with the fees charged by other organizations for similar work.  These fees are added on to the tax roll, and are therefore included in the minimum tender/bid amount if the property goes to tax sale.

More info about Realtax and OTS will follow in the coming days.

[Frank]

At this rate, it won't be long before Jeff becomes an advanced member.  Could even beat out PFM.   

[OTS Jeff]

Thanks Frank, but I've got a long way to go. 

But this does bring up another issue that I'd like to address.  That is, it's been suggested that I've been active on this forum.  Actually, I haven't been, until today.  No one from OTS or Realtax has ever posted anything on this forum prior to 12 December 2010, so you don't have to wonder if we were posting comments under an alias.  We weren't.  And in all of our postings we'll be up front about who we are; we'll be clear about that so people will know what bias or interest we may have.
 
Some of my teammates (those amazing people that I work with) and I have been reading this forum for many years.  It's and excellent forum.  And we often discussed the pros and cons of submitting posts.  But until now, we felt that it was better to have all of our communications flowing through our email account and our newsletters.  But in the past week or so, it looked like I might be able to win either a popularity contest or an unpopularity contest on this forum.  So my teammates and I thought I join in the conversation.

Hey, it's nice to be on board! 

Jeff Oberman, President
OTS and Realtax