Cramahe

[twinn1]

15 winning bids, wow, guess he is the bigdog in the tax sale game.

Dave2, you are not doing anything wrong, and at some of the prices mentioned, I don't know how he is making money. 

There could be so many reasons and selling the property for a quick profit may not be the motivation.  Just a few of the top of my head:
Requires a capital loss on income to reduce income tax payable
See;s a higher rate of capital return vs the stock market
Projects that his ROI will be greater then 5-10% over the long term cycle as opposed to the other investment avenues.  Could be just buying it as he would buy stocks.
Possible has some inside info regarding zoning changes in the next 10 years, he has the capital to wait out zoning changes, roads etc..
Invests in land as a hedge to safeguard his capital, maybe he is not looking to make a profit (other then break even plus a few thousand).

What is the timeline for these 15 wins? 1-2 years? 5-10?

There are a lot of wealthy people out there looking to invest capital in whatever they can find, some people give their money to investment advisors, others keep it in GIC's, others buy gold and silver, others invest in penny stocks looking for a quick return, some invest in startups etc.. 

I think it a pretty safe investment to buy land, no dividends but GIC's/Gold,Silver dont pay those anyway and with the market, you always have a chance of lossing it.  Kind of the same as parking it in a savings account, excpet its not as liquid.

Dave2, look at it this way, add up all the times you lost by the amount you lost by, and then ask yourself, if you had money to burn would it not be worth the X amount to have won those bids?  Even if that amount is 200K or something crazy like that, to someone with millions, its just a drop in the bucket.

[Dave2]

15 winning bids, wow, guess he is the bigdog in the tax sale game.

Dave2, you are not doing anything wrong, and at some of the prices mentioned, I don't know how he is making money.  

What is the timeline for these 15 wins? 1-2 years? 5-10?

Twinn:  Less then two years. For me this guy is one dangerous and smart dude who is well financed.  Lets look at the facts. What is concerning as well is that he is not afraid to get his hands dirty

I have been active in taxsales for less then 2 years and operate mostly east and northeast of Toronto close to my home near Cobourg.  By way of background lets look at the recent bids in detail for Trent Hills.  I did not know until I was tipped off (thanks Netpred) that they post the results and I will give everyone one guess "Bigfoot's Identity is" as it is in the public domain.  

Trenthills Sale of Land by Public Tender - August 19, 2009
Tender Results

1.  Roll # 1435 229  030 07104          No Tenders Received

2.  Roll # 1435 229 030 04047  
Highest Tender Amount                  $7813.13  Bigfoot
Second Highest Tender Amount     $6850.00  

3.  Roll # 1435 229 030 04017
Highest Tender Amount                 $15000.00   Neighbour
Second Highest Tender Amount    $10213.13     Bigfoot

4.  Roll # 1435 229 030 03924  
Highest Tender Amount                 $13500.00  Realtor from To?
Second Highest Tender Amount    $ 8050.00   

5.  Roll # 1435 229 030 03902        
Highest Tender Amount                $ 5113.13   Bigfoot
Second Highest Tender Amount   $ 5010.00  

6.  Roll # 1435 229 010 18226        
Highest Tender Amount                $ 8713.13   Bigfoot
Second Highest Tender Amount   $ 7026.01  

7.  Roll # 1435 229 030 07103        No Tenders Received

Bids for 3 and 4 I would consider too high for resale given local market prices on MLS and I believe for
4 that it is a person out of Toronto and not active regularly locally. 3 maybe a neighbour. On 5 I believe "Bigfoot" was third.   In a private post Netpred said it better then I could.

"Bigfoot seems to be an astute bidder. It doesn't seem that he bids really high, but bids well. Case in point; follow this link for the latest Trent Hills results:

Bigfoot did not win by a very large margin. I guess he has figured out this bidding game better than you and I."

This post is getting a little long so I will continue in the next one.

[Dave2]

Cramahe:

Also illustrates another area of concern.  The property that was redeemed with the dwelling had an assessed value of 2.6 times that of the big acreage. ($130,000 + compared to $53,000).

Given the short time before the opening the bidders for the other property were read out so if present they could redeem their deposit.  "Bigfoot" bid on that one as well and it reasonable to expect that
he bid at least $75,000 if not more.

If he won both he has to come up with $135 - $150,000 in cash.  Bottom line this dude has bread, 
and moreover is willing to go through the hastle of a tenant eviction. He also values each separately
and does not use a standard formula. 

PFM and I have had some big arguments over the last year on bid values and where the market is.  What I am trying to say is all I am responding to is the market and the market is changing.  We have some well heeled first class professionals out there and they can't be ignored.

In spite of this I still have no complaints. I have won 7 of my own including some with interesting potenial.

[Dave2]

I personally think you should remove the names, Just because Trent made a mistake and published doesn't make it OK for us to discuss specific names. The land registry is public information but we should absolutely respect peoples privacy.

Oh and I can see why you are peeved..pretty damn good bidding by that guy

PFM I have too much respect for you so I have complied with your request on this round (see modified post) so we can debate this one.  You will note I had done that as standard practice previously until the Website reference was brought to my attention.  

Interestingly Trent Hills is not the only one who posts or publishes this information and if I want to get the information on a bid I will often ask it even if in the past I have not posted it.  Finding out who the winning bidders are and their names are important.  For example if I think you or Frank are bidding on a property I am interested in I will definitely change my bidding strategy to a higher bid if I want the property.  Personally I think learning the bidding profile of the serious bidders in the tax sale game is as important as say doing a legal check.  

This brings up an interesting question for Rob our administrator.  SHOULD we redesign the board so that information on winning bidders is available on a restricted basis to what I will call serious players.
 That will meet the PFM's confidentiality redesires as well as my market information needs.  I have seen this approach used on other forum websites and I suggest we discuss it offline.

In conclusion PFM I think if you are going to compete in this marketplace your identity is already much more exposed then you may like.  People just have to know where to look.  The information is already there.

I can fire shots across bows too; but it tends to interfere with the prime objective of finding good properties to buy at an affordable price.  I trush having met your request you will do the same by removing the cannon shot before we go offline for an interesting discussion.

[twinn1]

Dave2, you are an astute bidder researching the winning bids, I don;t know if we have to redesign the board to that effect.  Its a part of due diligence and if you are willing to spend the time required for that info and adjust your bid accordingly, then that is one more tool in your toolbox to help you win.

Posting names on here will not accomplish anything, you have no way of knowing if PFM, Frank, the conspiracy guy (i forget his name now) bigfoot, me etc... is going to bid on a property, i certianly would not make it public information if I am going to bid.  You can have an idea by were the land is and what type of property it is.  Ie. if you can cruise up to it in a Fountain boat, its a good bet that PFM will be bidding.

Seems like the bigfoot character like the #13, all his bids end on that note, thats a pretty cool signature, if you lost to some guy whose bid was .13, then you know the bigfoot has striked again. 

[netpred]

I have dealt with Dave by email and on phone. He seems to be straight up decent guy. I am sure that there is no malice in anything he does here.

As far as a bidder's identity is concerned, it is my view that if that information is in the public domain there is nothing wrong with reporting it. Obviously it would not be proper to incite hatered or to libel someone. However, I don't see anything wrong with reporting a fact that is a matter of public record. If it is not a matter of public record, for example my wife's name, then I believe that there is a reasonable expectation of privacy that ought to be respected.

Just my 2 cents.

[Pfm1011]

IAs far as a bidder's identity is concerned, it is my view that if that information is in the public domain there is nothing wrong with reporting it. Obviously it would not be proper to incite hatered or to libel someone. However, I don't see anything wrong with reporting a fact that is a matter of public record. If it is not a matter of public record, for example my wife's name, then I believe that there is a reasonable expectation of privacy that ought to be respected.

You are under the presumption that it is only shared among us regulars..this is entirely not the case as the lurkers are 50 to 1 to the posters.

Also if you start naming names I can assure you this site will die as no forums use real names and noone will post. If real names appear then there is , A:  possibility of harassment by losers and B:  possibility of lawsuits as some scumbag will buy a site that we said  looked good and will turn out to be dirty soil. Him and his scumbag lawyer will sue anyone

[Dave2]

First: It was never my intention that we would use names here.  Only report winners and 2nd parties on completed bids that were in the public domain so people could get a better idea "who" was winning.   In time we would get an idea who the pro's were and what they were doing.

I agree about the concern with lurkers etc.  though.  Its easy to do the same offline with a small group.  I suggest those who I will call the eastern ontario regulars get in touch with me and we will do the same by private post as we have a particular reason to do it.  In other regions they may have the same problem but they just don't know it.

I would prefer to do it online but obviously to some members of the board this one is sensitive.

It took me a while to understand the reason for the sensitivity of certain members of the board on this subject (sometimes I am a little slow) then it struck me.  The real big winners are maybe already here and  they are hiding in plain sight.  Maybe to them 10, or 15 wins is small potatoes. I hope that conjecture is true and if so I raise my glass to them.  More likely though it is a much smaller number but of extremely good quality.  Certainly they strike me as class acts. 

Whatever the case I have no desire to drive them off the board.  In the interest of peace I consider this closed and will move on.
   

[netpred]

IAs far as a bidder's identity is concerned, it is my view that if that information is in the public domain there is nothing wrong with reporting it. Obviously it would not be proper to incite hatered or to libel someone. However, I don't see anything wrong with reporting a fact that is a matter of public record. If it is not a matter of public record, for example my wife's name, then I believe that there is a reasonable expectation of privacy that ought to be respected.

You are under the presumption that it is only shared among us regulars..this is entirely not the case as the lurkers are 50 to 1 to the posters.

Also if you start naming names I can assure you this site will die as no forums use real names and noone will post. If real names appear then there is , A:  possibility of harassment by losers and B:  possibility of lawsuits as some scumbag will buy a site that we said  looked good and will turn out to be dirty soil. Him and his scumbag lawyer will sue anyone

I understand that there are a lot of lurkers but that is really another issue that may need to be addressed.

I also completely agree that it is vital to preserve confidentiality on this website. That's why nobody uses their real name. However, where we disagree is that it is my view that there is no confidentiality, or reasonable expectation of privacy, with respect to any information contained in a public record. The Trent Hills website is a public record. Nobody here is being identified nor is any confidence being breached. The situation is the same as posting the name of a person who has been identified in a newspaper.

I did not post Bigfoot's name because I elected not to. However, I continue to believe that Dave was well within his rights to repeat publicly the contents of a public record.

By the way, do you believe that all lawyers are scumbags or only those who work for scumbags?

[ErnestBidder]

  Happened to pass this property yesterday, and a brand new road is being put through, west from #25; it will appear to be a continuation of road #21. Talked to a local, and we can assume that bigfoot is acting, in some cases, for aggregate interests, or he is a visionary who can see that 100 acres on an unopened road allowance becomes much more valuable when someone else pays for the road. The quarry is a fact, and loaded trucks will travelling #25, while other trafic will be able to come in from the west via Turks road.

[Dave2]

 Happened to pass this property yesterday, and a brand new road is being put through, west from #25; it will appear to be a continuation of road #21. Talked to a local, and we can assume that bigfoot is acting, in some cases, for aggregate interests, or he is a visionary who can see that 100 acres on an unopened road allowance becomes much more valuable when someone else pays for the road. The quarry is a fact, and loaded trucks will travelling #25, while other trafic will be able to come in from the west via Turks road.

I actually talked with Bigfoot sometime after he won this one.  He mentioned personal use property for deer hunting which I believe him.  It is only about 10 - 15 minutes from his house so he could hunt it in the morning or evening of a workday.  

When I tramped the property before bids I saw deer sign as well.  That is why he bid what was in effect I considered a full value bid and not being a deer hunter I bid what I considered the maximum value for the property for my purposes.  My hidden purpose at the time which I did not explain was a solar farm for which I was glad to have the power line, but unfortunately was not possible on this grid.

You just cannot get deer hunting property of this size very easily this close to Toronto.  That the Quarry was coming and the road allowance would be opened was a locally known fact before the bid and one I considered in pricing it.  Unfortunately being third does not cut it in this business.  

Bigfoot continues to be a smart dude that if he wants something has his bid right on the mark .  We tangled recently and he won one I believe he wanted, I won the one I wanted and we both lost one to whom I believe was an adjacent property owner for a third property we both put a shit bid on because the property had limited value to each of us.