OTS Tax Sale Lead Times, Pigs, and Pig Peeves

[g2020]

The PFM1011 position to shorten the tax sale notice lead is certainly not manure but it is specious. PFM is the fastest gunslinger on this site so wants to cut the OTS lead time from 6 weeks to one week. He is appreciated. The real competition is not the other gunslingers, or even us old boys (young Susan included), who all know each other from the old tax sale auctions. Your competition is the loco pig poachers and by statute they get several weeks lead time in a loco rag. I do admire PFM because each weekend he shoots most of the pigs before I can even figure how to log onto this site. You gunslingers just want to send your pigs to market for a maximized, risk adjusted ROI or some crap like that. Like Frank with the minor variance for his pig, we like to apply a little lipstick. We rarely tender a new pig since we fall in love with them and keep them forever, or at least until they are all dressed up and pretty like. The old boys do not all have internet access and won't tender a pig that we have not kissed. The dave2 island pig is a case in point. I remember being outwitted by Susan who used surveyor equipment from shore to determine that the pig actually had a cottage on it and was not the useless piece of rock that the farmer claimed. Watch out for crooked treasurers mascerading as farmers!
If any of you gunslingers are qualified to take a run at the Winchester farmer who sold the pig for 85K this summer please let me know. A 125K tender arrived by 10:10 that morning but was "misplaced". Contrary to supreme court direction the farmer refused to exercise his discretion to cancel the sale, and fast tracked the registration of the tax deed before the old boy could get an injunction. That old boy" will give you half of the belly. At draft stage that pig would dress up to well over a million dollars. Any takers? Anyone attend the opening or have their tender "misplaced" this summer? 
Another farmer was telling you gunslingers that Pigeon Lake pig was landlocked. Some loco stole the R-Plan from the registry office and misfiled the pedigree. I put the pedigree in properly and they printed me a new R-Plan. They always have a mylar. The fact is the pig was not water access. It had already been dressed up with a 33 foot wide strip out to the county road. Speaking of pig manure the Napanee Pig came TW lipstick. Enough of this water access crap. Get your own pig and don"t disparage others. Beauty is in the eye of the pig holder...   My point is girls - if you are serious about marrying that pig then you need more than 5 days to do your due diligence.   

[Pfm1011]

If any of you gunslingers are qualified to take a run at the Winchester farmer who sold the pig for 85K this summer please let me know. A 125K tender arrived by 10:10 that morning but was "misplaced". Contrary to supreme court direction the farmer refused to exercise his discretion to cancel the sale, and fast tracked the registration of the tax deed before the old boy could get an injunction.

Not being fully versed in Pigs..Do I get this correct that a treasurer ran a tax sale and opened up all the tenders . He/she declared the winner who had a high bid of 85. Someone in attendance claimed they bid 125 but the city had lost it. Was the envelope ever located or was it permanently lost?   If it was located and did contain a valid bid for 125  you might have a legal argument however  In order to overturn the registration of the deed you would have to PROVE fraud by the treasurer, ( unless the land went to the treasurer or the direct family , good luck)  If the envelope was never found..no chance

Maybe I am naive but I find it unlikely a treasurer would run a scam..mind you a small town may be different

[Frank]

Sorry, I don't get it.  My momma told me to stay away from pigs.  Now-a-days we tell our adult males to stay clear of Cougars.  Are they the same thing, or do I need to spend some time on a pig farm to really understand.  I really do prefer peamale bacon to that stuff with the fat strips. 

Someone please explain what is happening to this site, we've gone from tax sales, to high speed boats (sell the island and buy the boat). 

I really prefer the short notice myself, although it gives the locals a leg up.  However, the 6 weeks will likely only apply to the ones for municipalities that use OTS.

What do you get when you cross a pig with a centipede.......bacon & legs

[netpred]

The PFM1011 position to shorten the tax sale notice lead is certainly not manure but it is specious. PFM is the fastest gunslinger on this site so wants to cut the OTS lead time from 6 weeks to one week. He is appreciated. The real competition is not the other gunslingers, or even us old boys (young Susan included), who all know each other from the old tax sale auctions. Your competition is the loco pig poachers and by statute they get several weeks lead time in a loco rag. I do admire PFM because each weekend he shoots most of the pigs before I can even figure how to log onto this site. You gunslingers just want to send your pigs to market for a maximized, risk adjusted ROI or some crap like that. Like Frank with the minor variance for his pig, we like to apply a little lipstick. We rarely tender a new pig since we fall in love with them and keep them forever, or at least until they are all dressed up and pretty like. The old boys do not all have internet access and won't tender a pig that we have not kissed. The dave2 island pig is a case in point. I remember being outwitted by Susan who used surveyor equipment from shore to determine that the pig actually had a cottage on it and was not the useless piece of rock that the farmer claimed. Watch out for crooked treasurers mascerading as farmers!
If any of you gunslingers are qualified to take a run at the Winchester farmer who sold the pig for 85K this summer please let me know. A 125K tender arrived by 10:10 that morning but was "misplaced". Contrary to supreme court direction the farmer refused to exercise his discretion to cancel the sale, and fast tracked the registration of the tax deed before the old boy could get an injunction. That old boy" will give you half of the belly. At draft stage that pig would dress up to well over a million dollars. Any takers? Anyone attend the opening or have their tender "misplaced" this summer?  
Another farmer was telling you gunslingers that Pigeon Lake pig was landlocked. Some loco stole the R-Plan from the registry office and misfiled the pedigree. I put the pedigree in properly and they printed me a new R-Plan. They always have a mylar. The fact is the pig was not water access. It had already been dressed up with a 33 foot wide strip out to the county road. Speaking of pig manure the Napanee Pig came TW lipstick. Enough of this water access crap. Get your own pig and don"t disparage others. Beauty is in the eye of the pig holder...   My point is girls - if you are serious about marrying that pig then you need more than 5 days to do your due diligence.  

Very nicely worded. You ever read "Animal Farm" by Orwell?

[ErnestBidder]

 Where does one apply for translation services? ;>))  I have gone to a few TS openings in the past where the staff mumbled to themselves, and one could not hear, or could barely hear, the names of the bidders or amount of the deposits. In this kind of instance, where most people are afraid of antagonizing the staff, who may get back at them next time they need help, one has to speak up and ask for results to be spoken clearly for all to hear. The one time I found this to be necessary, staff were startled at my effrontery. (affrontery?) On the whole, I  have found local staff to be most pleasant and helpful. One tax department, to save me another round trip of some 90 miles, jumped to with a rapidly prepared new deed, then had me follow them, at high speed, to the registry office, just at closing, so I could continue on home and not have to sit around the municipal building. (which reminds me that I should take a round of donuts & coffee next time I'm in town---All hail Kawartha Lakes tax department!)

   I've got to meet this Susan! Clever! I'm LMHO! (and trying not to wake my wife)

[Frank]

Where does one apply for translation services? ;>))  I have gone to a few TS openings in the past where the staff mumbled to themselves, and one could not hear, or could barely hear, the names of the bidders or amount of the deposits. In this kind of instance, where most people are afraid of antagonizing the staff, who may get back at them next time they need help, one has to speak up and ask for results to be spoken clearly for all to hear. The one time I found this to be necessary, staff were startled at my effrontery. (affrontery?) On the whole, I  have found local staff to be most pleasant and helpful. One tax department, to save me another round trip of some 90 miles, jumped to with a rapidly prepared new deed, then had me follow them, at high speed, to the registry office, just at closing, so I could continue on home and not have to sit around the municipal building. (which reminds me that I should take a round of donuts & coffee next time I'm in town---All hail Kawartha Lakes tax department!)

   I've got to meet this Susan! Clever! I'm LMHO! (and trying not to wake my wife)

Unfortunately there is no mandatory reporting of bid results (including deposit amounts).  I've been to bids where the deposit amounts aren't even read out, they just acknowledge that there is a deposit, and it will be reviewed for compliance by the town later - prior to confirming the bid staus.  Fortunate for me, the one that I went to court over and won, was centred on the amount of the deposit and the fact that the one bid higher than mine was deficient...albeit slightly, but nonetheless deficient.  If I wasn't at the bid, or couldn't hear that, then I never would have been able t take the action to overturn the results as determined by the town treasurer.

[markymark]

Sounds like a dirty pig farmer to me.(not qualified to run at him though.) Was this kerrs ridge?
Brings up a valid question.Should a receipt be issued for envelopes dropped off? Like tax returns.
Does fed ex not get a signature?
I've also found maps disappearing.(wasting more of my time.)

TW lipstick Napanee?I don't get it.
cheers and happy hunting.(boar that is.)

[Dave2]

If I didn't know better I would say this board has gone "hog wild"

Must be an election coming with all the reference to "pork"

[Dave2]

If any of you gunslingers are qualified to take a run at the Winchester farmer who sold the pig for 85K this summer please let me know. A 125K tender arrived by 10:10 that morning but was "misplaced". Contrary to supreme court direction the farmer refused to exercise his discretion to cancel the sale, and fast tracked the registration of the tax deed before the old boy could get an injunction. That old boy" will give you half of the belly. At draft stage that pig would dress up to well over a million dollars. Any takers? Anyone attend the opening or have their tender "misplaced" this summer?

Sorry can't help you.  Had different particulars but also felt concern in one case about handling by municipality.   As the number 2 bidder felt that the number 1 got more then the allowed 14 days to come up with the rest of the money.   My lawyer who is a good country lawyer said very difficult to prove and in the case at hand for me not worth the fight.  (rural single building lot.)

[Pfm1011]

If any of you gunslingers are qualified to take a run at the Winchester farmer who sold the pig for 85K this summer please let me know. A 125K tender arrived by 10:10 that morning but was "misplaced". Contrary to supreme court direction the farmer refused to exercise his discretion to cancel the sale, and fast tracked the registration of the tax deed before the old boy could get an injunction. That old boy" will give you half of the belly. At draft stage that pig would dress up to well over a million dollars. Any takers? Anyone attend the opening or have their tender "misplaced" this summer

I didn't follow that sale as I cant get any electronic info on the area but are we talking about 48493 M2 (11 acres ) off bailey ave that sold for 87781. That wasn't transferred until July 16th, 13 days after the sale . That was not fast tracked as 13 days is plenty of time for any investigation/injunction if there was a valid claim.

If thats the piece in question The 3 bidders just did very well as I easily see 37  lots so Im guessing theres  a dollar or two  to be made ( presuming the land is buildable as I have no aerial, damn looks like I missed another)

I still have a problem buying "corrupt treasurer"..I have had issues with treasurers before but they were very valid issues and fully believe the treasurers were at all times acting in what they believe to be the best interest of the towns and simply misunderstood the law. Every issue has been rectified in my favour in very professional and polite (although fairly firm)  manner after the treasurers consulted town lawyers..Which is what they should do if they aren't sure as they are treasurers..not lawyers

Frank. Do you believe the treasurer in your case was being corrupt and awarding a friend or just arrogant and stubborn?

[g2020]

PFM - I tried to send you all the details - spent considerable time and somehow lost it all when I switched to check my stocks. My wife noticed that this is emotion is not good for my health so I am posting nothing more on this site except for perhaps a short post with cautions for newbees. I will stick to just looking at property in top down weather and perhaps maybe even tendering the occasional pig. Your cohorts seem to like giving you advice so here's mine -  don't get up set when an old boy cleans your clock by more than 20%, just sell your tender - she will know how and what to do with it. I am impressed with your estimate that Winchester would  yield about 37 lots. I laid out the streets and under the existing zoning it actually yields a little more than that. Planning was quite upset when showed told them that the document from the tax sale package showed it as agricultural - the Official Plan designates it settlement and it is already zoned residential. I have that natural Professional Engineer propensity to check everything out including sewer, water, gas, demand for home sites, and time and complexity to get it to draft plan stage. Admittedly I may be overly emotional since when I was in university my mother lost her inheritance in a treasurer/relative tax sale scam. I have bought more Ontario tax sale property and made a lot more money than anyone except, except for Digman of course, so I speak with almost 40 years of buying experience.
No one wants to talk about Pigeon Lake. Why? Think about this again:
1. someone stole the reference plan from the registry office that showed it was not "water access" (I got it replaced),
2. someone misfiled the deed referenced in the tax sale notice that showed it was not "water access" (I refiled it correctly),
3. there was a "consent stamp" on the referenced deed so the councilors etc on the planning commitee had knowledge,
4. the municipality was telling everyone that the parcel was landlocked,
5  OTS supplied information to the municipality,
6. this site was telling everyone it was landlocked,
7. it is worth over a 1/4 million, yes it is,
8. my son-in-law got sent a copy of a map for direction to the property and it didn't even show the area where the property was located,
. without someone posting me a copy of the OTS search I cannot comment further about their complicity in this whole smell mess.
3.   

[g2020]

OOPS - HERE IS MY RETYPE OF THE REST OF THE POST

9. purportedly one councilor declared a conflict of interest which again the truth was within the knowledge of the municipality,
10. without someone posting me a copy of the OTS search it is unfair for me to comment furtherregarding their complicity in this whole smelly mess.

Fortunately the owner paid it off so one could assert that no harm was done. Not so! I am suspicious enough to suggest that you never buy a search from Ontario Tax Sales. Use your own lawyer instead to order a search. Then you won't need me to explain why TW (together with), ST (subject to), etc. in the parcel descriptor are so important in deciding how much to bid. To do this level of due diligence you newbees need more than a week. I respect Frank for pointing out that a short OTS lead time tips the scale in favor of the locals. I suggest to you that locals includes the treasurer's friends and relatives, the municipalities solicitor's friends and relatives, and the municipal employees' friends and relatives. This is not a Sheriff's Sale - everyone can tender without conflict. The municipality may be your competitor, in their name or otherwise, although they should pass a bylaw to do so. I once bought a parcel from the Township of King where they were actually flogging their own property and I then had to purchase a lot of additional land on Weston Road to qualify for a building permit. At the same sale they had a shill buy a parcel for their own use. A couple of years ago some of you may remember the Amhurst Island sale. The high bidder on the waterfront parcel until after the tender opening when they beat us all quite legally. Even the staff were shocked to find out that the 100K winning tender was their own. If the names had not been called out then no one would have known. A year and a day after the sale any excess process of sale is forfeited to the municipality - think about that one. The owner gets nothing in that case.  If PDM actually wants that boat he should collect excess proceeds of sale for 50 cents on the dollar where the only real tax sale money can be made today. The municipalities won't like you but what a boat!  Wow - 3 friggin motors! My grandsons would offer to have my wife tow you around with her new hunkin big Mercedes grammymobile. I digress.
Oh, and another point about Winchester fast tracking. Every solicitor in the Cornwall area was contacted (the court where a motion to cancel and redo the sale would have to be heard), before one nearby was found. Due to summer schedules the race was lost. This is wrong!  The motion was just to restart and properly conduct the sale to be fair to everyone. There was a fairly recent Ontario supreme court ruling requiring the treasurer to exercise his discretion, even if he does not know he has such discretion, in a situation such as this. The courier envelope remains unopened. The Winchester situation is a lot dirtier than you could ever imagine, but probably just an unfortunate isolated error, made worse by well intentioned individuals doing there best. Nevertheless there were damages. Cheers!

G2020 P.Eng.   

[Pfm1011]

The comments against OTS are improper and highly irresponsible and many would say actionable .  I have used them on many sales and have never seen any signs of impropriety and have always found their information completely accurate.  

(Of course I shuddered today when I heard a radio ad by them. Expect 100 minimum bid tenders at every opening....thanks guys.. I hope it backfires and the towns decide they  don't need the hassle brought on by mass marketing..but that's another matter)..

That said...A few days before the sale I had OTS run a title check for me on the piece   Ontario Tax sales title search  clearly stated that the owner would have right of way over parts 4 and 6 to allow access to highway 36. Additionally they provided me a survey clearly showing the ROW.

Of course after I spend the money, the treasurer tells me the owner called and said they would be redeeming, which they did.

It seems to me that you are a paranoid conspiracy freak. Screwed at Bobcaygeon, screwed at winchester.  If the town bids on a piece its wrong, crooked treasurers, crooked staff, crooked title searchers , people hiding maps . Joseph Mengele to the left..Adolf Hitlers clone to the right..Aliens all around

There is no conspiracy at bobcaygeon..the town telling people it water access..Simple.. It has no road frontage so  the town staff tells people exactly what it says as they cant be bothered to check for ROW . From a building code/zoning point of view it is essentially  water access as it has no frontage

Councilor who declared conflict ..Bought the first  piece, he was the adjacent owner. He did the proper thing by declaring conflict and you find something evil in it

The owner of this piece redeemed because a moron(s) called him and tried to do a deal. This  happens at every good piece (Jackasses) No conspiracy, no aliens, not even walking dead..just greedy morons..taxpayer paid his tax bill so we couldn't steal his land..I know it doesn't fit in our plans for world domination ..but that's life
 
Staff can bid, Treasurers can Bid and anybody can bid..Declare conflict and don't steam open the envelopes and bid to your hearts content. If they beat me so be it



 

[Dave2]

g2020

I for one hope that you stay around and enjoy the party.  Like any party it can proceed in public or in private. As an old fashioned non swinger type of guy I find that some activities are best enjoyed in private.  ie by private message.

I am going to send you something offline which I think might be of value to you.  I would prefer that we discuss it offline because you have a different strategy then me and with a few exceptions I don't wish to share it with everyone who lurks on this board.  You are willing to go after properties that require deep pockets and a long term vision.  Of course in these cases the reward will be proportionately greater.   

You along with PFM, Frank and a few others obviously because of your success in these matters, have an appreciation for the finer things in life that often come with the type of boat PFM is hoping to buy.  If one is to buy this type of boat one of the mandatory possessions is the sweet young things with skimpy pieces of cloth that travel in the passenger's seats along with the alpha male as driver(I am assuming you are male because of the P eng).  My wife calls them the accessories.

My question to you and the other learned members of the board who obviously have more experience then me in these matters is "Why as the cloth gets skimpier on the sweet young things (in my very limited experience before I got married (emphasis)) do they tend to get more expensive?" One would think that those that had more cloth would be more expensive.
(I could post some phots of examples but Rob is a conservative type of guy)

I for one hope you stay.  I have had lots of disapointments too from many causes. In the end it doesn't matter as in this game there is no reward for second place.  We can always use more wisdom either in public or in private. your choice.

[Rob]

The comments against OTS are improper and highly irresponsible and many would say actionable

Actionable?  Highly irresponsible? 

Businesses have fans and distractors.  The very nature of the way a business is run could cause instant like or dislike. Threats of legal action is not a very bright imagine to shine on a business and I don't think OTS would appreciate being associated with those comments.

Everyone should feel welcome to share an experience or story.  You may not agree with each person's assessment of the facts they understand but trying to silence them is dangerous and not acceptable.