Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => Questions and Answers => Topic started by: g2020 on September 09, 2009, 08:55:32 PM
-
The PFM1011 position to shorten the tax sale notice lead is certainly not manure but it is specious. PFM is the fastest gunslinger on this site so wants to cut the OTS lead time from 6 weeks to one week. He is appreciated. The real competition is not the other gunslingers, or even us old boys (young Susan included), who all know each other from the old tax sale auctions. Your competition is the loco pig poachers and by statute they get several weeks lead time in a loco rag. I do admire PFM because each weekend he shoots most of the pigs before I can even figure how to log onto this site. You gunslingers just want to send your pigs to market for a maximized, risk adjusted ROI or some crap like that. Like Frank with the minor variance for his pig, we like to apply a little lipstick. We rarely tender a new pig since we fall in love with them and keep them forever, or at least until they are all dressed up and pretty like. The old boys do not all have internet access and won't tender a pig that we have not kissed. The dave2 island pig is a case in point. I remember being outwitted by Susan who used surveyor equipment from shore to determine that the pig actually had a cottage on it and was not the useless piece of rock that the farmer claimed. Watch out for crooked treasurers mascerading as farmers!
If any of you gunslingers are qualified to take a run at the Winchester farmer who sold the pig for 85K this summer please let me know. A 125K tender arrived by 10:10 that morning but was "misplaced". Contrary to supreme court direction the farmer refused to exercise his discretion to cancel the sale, and fast tracked the registration of the tax deed before the old boy could get an injunction. That old boy" will give you half of the belly. At draft stage that pig would dress up to well over a million dollars. Any takers? Anyone attend the opening or have their tender "misplaced" this summer?
Another farmer was telling you gunslingers that Pigeon Lake pig was landlocked. Some loco stole the R-Plan from the registry office and misfiled the pedigree. I put the pedigree in properly and they printed me a new R-Plan. They always have a mylar. The fact is the pig was not water access. It had already been dressed up with a 33 foot wide strip out to the county road. Speaking of pig manure the Napanee Pig came TW lipstick. Enough of this water access crap. Get your own pig and don"t disparage others. Beauty is in the eye of the pig holder... My point is girls - if you are serious about marrying that pig then you need more than 5 days to do your due diligence.
-
If any of you gunslingers are qualified to take a run at the Winchester farmer who sold the pig for 85K this summer please let me know. A 125K tender arrived by 10:10 that morning but was "misplaced". Contrary to supreme court direction the farmer refused to exercise his discretion to cancel the sale, and fast tracked the registration of the tax deed before the old boy could get an injunction.
Not being fully versed in Pigs..Do I get this correct that a treasurer ran a tax sale and opened up all the tenders . He/she declared the winner who had a high bid of 85. Someone in attendance claimed they bid 125 but the city had lost it. Was the envelope ever located or was it permanently lost? If it was located and did contain a valid bid for 125 you might have a legal argument however In order to overturn the registration of the deed you would have to PROVE fraud by the treasurer, ( unless the land went to the treasurer or the direct family , good luck) If the envelope was never found..no chance
Maybe I am naive but I find it unlikely a treasurer would run a scam..mind you a small town may be different
-
Sorry, I don't get it. My momma told me to stay away from pigs. Now-a-days we tell our adult males to stay clear of Cougars. Are they the same thing, or do I need to spend some time on a pig farm to really understand. I really do prefer peamale bacon to that stuff with the fat strips.
Someone please explain what is happening to this site, we've gone from tax sales, to high speed boats (sell the island and buy the boat).
I really prefer the short notice myself, although it gives the locals a leg up. However, the 6 weeks will likely only apply to the ones for municipalities that use OTS.
What do you get when you cross a pig with a centipede.......bacon & legs ;D
-
The PFM1011 position to shorten the tax sale notice lead is certainly not manure but it is specious. PFM is the fastest gunslinger on this site so wants to cut the OTS lead time from 6 weeks to one week. He is appreciated. The real competition is not the other gunslingers, or even us old boys (young Susan included), who all know each other from the old tax sale auctions. Your competition is the loco pig poachers and by statute they get several weeks lead time in a loco rag. I do admire PFM because each weekend he shoots most of the pigs before I can even figure how to log onto this site. You gunslingers just want to send your pigs to market for a maximized, risk adjusted ROI or some crap like that. Like Frank with the minor variance for his pig, we like to apply a little lipstick. We rarely tender a new pig since we fall in love with them and keep them forever, or at least until they are all dressed up and pretty like. The old boys do not all have internet access and won't tender a pig that we have not kissed. The dave2 island pig is a case in point. I remember being outwitted by Susan who used surveyor equipment from shore to determine that the pig actually had a cottage on it and was not the useless piece of rock that the farmer claimed. Watch out for crooked treasurers mascerading as farmers!
If any of you gunslingers are qualified to take a run at the Winchester farmer who sold the pig for 85K this summer please let me know. A 125K tender arrived by 10:10 that morning but was "misplaced". Contrary to supreme court direction the farmer refused to exercise his discretion to cancel the sale, and fast tracked the registration of the tax deed before the old boy could get an injunction. That old boy" will give you half of the belly. At draft stage that pig would dress up to well over a million dollars. Any takers? Anyone attend the opening or have their tender "misplaced" this summer?
Another farmer was telling you gunslingers that Pigeon Lake pig was landlocked. Some loco stole the R-Plan from the registry office and misfiled the pedigree. I put the pedigree in properly and they printed me a new R-Plan. They always have a mylar. The fact is the pig was not water access. It had already been dressed up with a 33 foot wide strip out to the county road. Speaking of pig manure the Napanee Pig came TW lipstick. Enough of this water access crap. Get your own pig and don"t disparage others. Beauty is in the eye of the pig holder... My point is girls - if you are serious about marrying that pig then you need more than 5 days to do your due diligence.
Very nicely worded. You ever read "Animal Farm" by Orwell?
-
Where does one apply for translation services? ;>)) I have gone to a few TS openings in the past where the staff mumbled to themselves, and one could not hear, or could barely hear, the names of the bidders or amount of the deposits. In this kind of instance, where most people are afraid of antagonizing the staff, who may get back at them next time they need help, one has to speak up and ask for results to be spoken clearly for all to hear. The one time I found this to be necessary, staff were startled at my effrontery. (affrontery?) On the whole, I have found local staff to be most pleasant and helpful. One tax department, to save me another round trip of some 90 miles, jumped to with a rapidly prepared new deed, then had me follow them, at high speed, to the registry office, just at closing, so I could continue on home and not have to sit around the municipal building. (which reminds me that I should take a round of donuts & coffee next time I'm in town---All hail Kawartha Lakes tax department!)
I've got to meet this Susan! Clever! I'm LMHO! (and trying not to wake my wife)
-
Where does one apply for translation services? ;>)) I have gone to a few TS openings in the past where the staff mumbled to themselves, and one could not hear, or could barely hear, the names of the bidders or amount of the deposits. In this kind of instance, where most people are afraid of antagonizing the staff, who may get back at them next time they need help, one has to speak up and ask for results to be spoken clearly for all to hear. The one time I found this to be necessary, staff were startled at my effrontery. (affrontery?) On the whole, I have found local staff to be most pleasant and helpful. One tax department, to save me another round trip of some 90 miles, jumped to with a rapidly prepared new deed, then had me follow them, at high speed, to the registry office, just at closing, so I could continue on home and not have to sit around the municipal building. (which reminds me that I should take a round of donuts & coffee next time I'm in town---All hail Kawartha Lakes tax department!)
I've got to meet this Susan! Clever! I'm LMHO! (and trying not to wake my wife)
Unfortunately there is no mandatory reporting of bid results (including deposit amounts). I've been to bids where the deposit amounts aren't even read out, they just acknowledge that there is a deposit, and it will be reviewed for compliance by the town later - prior to confirming the bid staus. Fortunate for me, the one that I went to court over and won, was centred on the amount of the deposit and the fact that the one bid higher than mine was deficient...albeit slightly, but nonetheless deficient. If I wasn't at the bid, or couldn't hear that, then I never would have been able t take the action to overturn the results as determined by the town treasurer.
-
Sounds like a dirty pig farmer to me.(not qualified to run at him though.) Was this kerrs ridge?
Brings up a valid question.Should a receipt be issued for envelopes dropped off? Like tax returns.
Does fed ex not get a signature?
I've also found maps disappearing.(wasting more of my time.)
TW lipstick Napanee?I don't get it.
cheers and happy hunting.(boar that is.)
-
If I didn't know better I would say this board has gone "hog wild"
Must be an election coming with all the reference to "pork"
-
If any of you gunslingers are qualified to take a run at the Winchester farmer who sold the pig for 85K this summer please let me know. A 125K tender arrived by 10:10 that morning but was "misplaced". Contrary to supreme court direction the farmer refused to exercise his discretion to cancel the sale, and fast tracked the registration of the tax deed before the old boy could get an injunction. That old boy" will give you half of the belly. At draft stage that pig would dress up to well over a million dollars. Any takers? Anyone attend the opening or have their tender "misplaced" this summer?
Sorry can't help you. Had different particulars but also felt concern in one case about handling by municipality. As the number 2 bidder felt that the number 1 got more then the allowed 14 days to come up with the rest of the money. My lawyer who is a good country lawyer said very difficult to prove and in the case at hand for me not worth the fight. (rural single building lot.)
-
If any of you gunslingers are qualified to take a run at the Winchester farmer who sold the pig for 85K this summer please let me know. A 125K tender arrived by 10:10 that morning but was "misplaced". Contrary to supreme court direction the farmer refused to exercise his discretion to cancel the sale, and fast tracked the registration of the tax deed before the old boy could get an injunction. That old boy" will give you half of the belly. At draft stage that pig would dress up to well over a million dollars. Any takers? Anyone attend the opening or have their tender "misplaced" this summer
I didn't follow that sale as I cant get any electronic info on the area but are we talking about 48493 M2 (11 acres ) off bailey ave that sold for 87781. That wasn't transferred until July 16th, 13 days after the sale . That was not fast tracked as 13 days is plenty of time for any investigation/injunction if there was a valid claim.
If thats the piece in question The 3 bidders just did very well as I easily see 37 lots so Im guessing theres a dollar or two to be made ( presuming the land is buildable as I have no aerial, damn looks like I missed another)
I still have a problem buying "corrupt treasurer"..I have had issues with treasurers before but they were very valid issues and fully believe the treasurers were at all times acting in what they believe to be the best interest of the towns and simply misunderstood the law. Every issue has been rectified in my favour in very professional and polite (although fairly firm) manner after the treasurers consulted town lawyers..Which is what they should do if they aren't sure as they are treasurers..not lawyers
Frank. Do you believe the treasurer in your case was being corrupt and awarding a friend or just arrogant and stubborn?
-
PFM - I tried to send you all the details - spent considerable time and somehow lost it all when I switched to check my stocks. My wife noticed that this is emotion is not good for my health so I am posting nothing more on this site except for perhaps a short post with cautions for newbees. I will stick to just looking at property in top down weather and perhaps maybe even tendering the occasional pig. Your cohorts seem to like giving you advice so here's mine - don't get up set when an old boy cleans your clock by more than 20%, just sell your tender - she will know how and what to do with it. I am impressed with your estimate that Winchester would yield about 37 lots. I laid out the streets and under the existing zoning it actually yields a little more than that. Planning was quite upset when showed told them that the document from the tax sale package showed it as agricultural - the Official Plan designates it settlement and it is already zoned residential. I have that natural Professional Engineer propensity to check everything out including sewer, water, gas, demand for home sites, and time and complexity to get it to draft plan stage. Admittedly I may be overly emotional since when I was in university my mother lost her inheritance in a treasurer/relative tax sale scam. I have bought more Ontario tax sale property and made a lot more money than anyone except, except for Digman of course, so I speak with almost 40 years of buying experience.
No one wants to talk about Pigeon Lake. Why? Think about this again:
1. someone stole the reference plan from the registry office that showed it was not "water access" (I got it replaced),
2. someone misfiled the deed referenced in the tax sale notice that showed it was not "water access" (I refiled it correctly),
3. there was a "consent stamp" on the referenced deed so the councilors etc on the planning commitee had knowledge,
4. the municipality was telling everyone that the parcel was landlocked,
5 OTS supplied information to the municipality,
6. this site was telling everyone it was landlocked,
7. it is worth over a 1/4 million, yes it is,
8. my son-in-law got sent a copy of a map for direction to the property and it didn't even show the area where the property was located,
. without someone posting me a copy of the OTS search I cannot comment further about their complicity in this whole smell mess.
3.
-
OOPS - HERE IS MY RETYPE OF THE REST OF THE POST
9. purportedly one councilor declared a conflict of interest which again the truth was within the knowledge of the municipality,
10. without someone posting me a copy of the OTS search it is unfair for me to comment furtherregarding their complicity in this whole smelly mess.
Fortunately the owner paid it off so one could assert that no harm was done. Not so! I am suspicious enough to suggest that you never buy a search from Ontario Tax Sales. Use your own lawyer instead to order a search. Then you won't need me to explain why TW (together with), ST (subject to), etc. in the parcel descriptor are so important in deciding how much to bid. To do this level of due diligence you newbees need more than a week. I respect Frank for pointing out that a short OTS lead time tips the scale in favor of the locals. I suggest to you that locals includes the treasurer's friends and relatives, the municipalities solicitor's friends and relatives, and the municipal employees' friends and relatives. This is not a Sheriff's Sale - everyone can tender without conflict. The municipality may be your competitor, in their name or otherwise, although they should pass a bylaw to do so. I once bought a parcel from the Township of King where they were actually flogging their own property and I then had to purchase a lot of additional land on Weston Road to qualify for a building permit. At the same sale they had a shill buy a parcel for their own use. A couple of years ago some of you may remember the Amhurst Island sale. The high bidder on the waterfront parcel until after the tender opening when they beat us all quite legally. Even the staff were shocked to find out that the 100K winning tender was their own. If the names had not been called out then no one would have known. A year and a day after the sale any excess process of sale is forfeited to the municipality - think about that one. The owner gets nothing in that case. If PDM actually wants that boat he should collect excess proceeds of sale for 50 cents on the dollar where the only real tax sale money can be made today. The municipalities won't like you but what a boat! Wow - 3 friggin motors! My grandsons would offer to have my wife tow you around with her new hunkin big Mercedes grammymobile. I digress.
Oh, and another point about Winchester fast tracking. Every solicitor in the Cornwall area was contacted (the court where a motion to cancel and redo the sale would have to be heard), before one nearby was found. Due to summer schedules the race was lost. This is wrong! The motion was just to restart and properly conduct the sale to be fair to everyone. There was a fairly recent Ontario supreme court ruling requiring the treasurer to exercise his discretion, even if he does not know he has such discretion, in a situation such as this. The courier envelope remains unopened. The Winchester situation is a lot dirtier than you could ever imagine, but probably just an unfortunate isolated error, made worse by well intentioned individuals doing there best. Nevertheless there were damages. Cheers!
G2020 P.Eng.
-
The comments against OTS are improper and highly irresponsible and many would say actionable . I have used them on many sales and have never seen any signs of impropriety and have always found their information completely accurate.
(Of course I shuddered today when I heard a radio ad by them. Expect 100 minimum bid tenders at every opening....thanks guys.. I hope it backfires and the towns decide they don't need the hassle brought on by mass marketing..but that's another matter)..
That said...A few days before the sale I had OTS run a title check for me on the piece Ontario Tax sales title search clearly stated that the owner would have right of way over parts 4 and 6 to allow access to highway 36. Additionally they provided me a survey clearly showing the ROW.
Of course after I spend the money, the treasurer tells me the owner called and said they would be redeeming, which they did.
It seems to me that you are a paranoid conspiracy freak. Screwed at Bobcaygeon, screwed at winchester. If the town bids on a piece its wrong, crooked treasurers, crooked staff, crooked title searchers , people hiding maps . Joseph Mengele to the left..Adolf Hitlers clone to the right..Aliens all around
There is no conspiracy at bobcaygeon..the town telling people it water access..Simple.. It has no road frontage so the town staff tells people exactly what it says as they cant be bothered to check for ROW . From a building code/zoning point of view it is essentially water access as it has no frontage
Councilor who declared conflict ..Bought the first piece, he was the adjacent owner. He did the proper thing by declaring conflict and you find something evil in it
The owner of this piece redeemed because a moron(s) called him and tried to do a deal. This happens at every good piece (Jackasses) No conspiracy, no aliens, not even walking dead..just greedy morons..taxpayer paid his tax bill so we couldn't steal his land..I know it doesn't fit in our plans for world domination ..but that's life
Staff can bid, Treasurers can Bid and anybody can bid..Declare conflict and don't steam open the envelopes and bid to your hearts content. If they beat me so be it
-
g2020
I for one hope that you stay around and enjoy the party. Like any party it can proceed in public or in private. As an old fashioned non swinger type of guy I find that some activities are best enjoyed in private. ie by private message.
I am going to send you something offline which I think might be of value to you. I would prefer that we discuss it offline because you have a different strategy then me and with a few exceptions I don't wish to share it with everyone who lurks on this board. You are willing to go after properties that require deep pockets and a long term vision. Of course in these cases the reward will be proportionately greater.
You along with PFM, Frank and a few others obviously because of your success in these matters, have an appreciation for the finer things in life that often come with the type of boat PFM is hoping to buy. If one is to buy this type of boat one of the mandatory possessions is the sweet young things with skimpy pieces of cloth that travel in the passenger's seats along with the alpha male as driver(I am assuming you are male because of the P eng). My wife calls them the accessories.
My question to you and the other learned members of the board who obviously have more experience then me in these matters is "Why as the cloth gets skimpier on the sweet young things (in my very limited experience before I got married (emphasis)) do they tend to get more expensive?" One would think that those that had more cloth would be more expensive.
(I could post some phots of examples but Rob is a conservative type of guy)
I for one hope you stay. I have had lots of disapointments too from many causes. In the end it doesn't matter as in this game there is no reward for second place. We can always use more wisdom either in public or in private. your choice.
-
The comments against OTS are improper and highly irresponsible and many would say actionable
Actionable? Highly irresponsible?
Businesses have fans and distractors. The very nature of the way a business is run could cause instant like or dislike. Threats of legal action is not a very bright imagine to shine on a business and I don't think OTS would appreciate being associated with those comments.
Everyone should feel welcome to share an experience or story. You may not agree with each person's assessment of the facts they understand but trying to silence them is dangerous and not acceptable.
-
Actionable? Everyone should feel welcome to share an experience or story. You may not agree with each person's assessment of the facts they understand but trying to silence them is dangerous and not acceptable.
Or we will have to go back to pig speak. Who wants that?? Actually I think I was getting the hang of it. ;)
Stick around g2020. This discourse regarding the g-men is good way to keep things honest. I don't like it when you hear family of staff are bidding. I wonder if the fix is in. As far as OTS is concerned, I have had a lot of dealings with them and they have always been very professional and helpful, however I usually avoid featured properties because they make it too easy and that creates too much attention.
-
The comments against OTS are improper and highly irresponsible and many would say actionable
Actionable? Highly irresponsible?
Businesses have fans and distractors. The very nature of the way a business is run could cause instant like or dislike. Threats of legal action is not a very bright imagine to shine on a business and I don't think OTS would appreciate being associated with those comments.
Everyone should feel welcome to share an experience or story. You may not agree with each person's assessment of the facts they understand but trying to silence them is dangerous and not acceptable.
. without someone posting me a copy of the OTS search I cannot comment further about their complicity in this whole smell mess.
Not so! I am suspicious enough to suggest that you never buy a search from Ontario Tax
These are not simple like or dislike comments
People reading this would automatically think they are crooked. Add to it young Susan's..oops G2020 claim to be the biggest tax sale expert in Ontario and now claim to be an engineer and it now has a ring of credibility. Anyone accused cant defend as they risk a war of words..not with "someone who buys ink by the barrel" but with someone who can claim what they want, can claim to be anyone and gets the "ink for free".
Sorry Rob but hiding behind fake names on the net make allegations to easy to make. No one would dare publish something like that in a newspaper but the net..go wild no name , no face . claim what you want and it considered a valid source
This is not a review saying ..they were slow and I didn't like their product..This says they were involved in a scam in which maps were stolen, townships were committing fraud, plans were changed in order for parties unknown to steal land..So now not only do we have a paranoid conspiracy..we are naming the conspirators.
We now allege that OTS conspired with a known town councilor, the known treasurer , several unknown staff and unknown outside parties to defraud G2020 out of the land at pigeon lake..Two minor problems..the taxpayer paid the bill..(not much of a surprise) and G2020 wasn't the the first or second bid so even if the taxpayer didn't pay..not in the running.
We now have now named two treasurers and a councilor personally ( yes they are personally identifiable ) and company principals as fraud artists..may be slightly "irresponsible" don't you think? Check your logs and you are looking at over 1000 people reading those allegations. Couple days from now if any searches google for them trying to decide whether to buy a subscription..they run into a "huge professional tax seller and engineer alleging fraud" and run away.
This sort of BS makes openings a nightmare as every loser will claim fraud and conspiracy. " I read about the Bobcaygeon scam..or winchester when millions were scammed, we all know it goes on and the treasurers are scammers..here we go again" And of course its always the 6th and 10th or 20th place people that bitch and complain about the fraud..
I understand Bobcaygeon had someone running around screaming treasurer fraud and conspiracy and apparently Adjala was supposed to be a silly mess.
I don't know about you , but the last thing I want when I win is a paranoid idiot in my face accusing me of conspiring with the treasurer and committing fraud. Would like a "well bought" not a "scumbag scammer, you robbed me".
When I talk to a treasurer or planner prior to a sale, I want them to consider us as professional ( we are vultures but professional vultures) not paranoid lunatics who will go psycho if we lose.
OTS's expansion attempt and advertising clearly run against our interest. The more they succeed , means more competition to us but it doesn't give someone the right to make allegations against them with possible motives of removing the competition they create or even no motive ..just paranoid babbling convincing themselves that the reason they lost is not that they bid low , or a taxpayer redeemed but because there is a giant conspiracy out there and its impossible to succeed against such odds.
( told you I would rant yet again)
-
Sorry Rob but hiding behind fake names on the net make allegations to easy to make. No one would dare publish something like that in a newspaper but the net..go wild no name , no face . claim what you want and it considered a valid source
Agreed. It is easy to post anything anonymously. It is another thing to use your real name.
I also tend to agree (mostly) with the rest of your well-written rant.
-
Normally I agree with PFM but for my particular circumstances I would argue that OTS is on balance a positive thing for me. Note I used the singular me; that may not be true of all board members.
First on the other concern I think while it may happen I believe it is a relatively rare event. I have lost far more bids or potential bids either to competition or to people who disclosed information that resulted in a redemption. Furthermore with the greater transparency that exists today; my belief it probably happens less today then yesterday.
I have using this type of service for years. long before even OTS appeared on the scene. My problem was that I lacked the discipline to visit the Ontario gazette on a regular basis. (OTS does have competitors).
If we look at tax sale postings in general both by municipalities and by OTS there are two types. Those with good information and those with limited information. Certainly OTS while not perfect raises the bar
on the quality of information that is available. While there are some municipalities that also give good information (E.g. Trent Hills) there is a whole lot of others where that is not true. OTS has certainly helped to raise the bar. The concern in some quarters seems to be that OTS is providing that information and maybe helping the masses better compete.
Ladies and gentlemen we can't have it both ways. I can also remember a series of posts in which everyone bitched because a municipality north of muskoka did not provide a lot of information and as a result the good one got away without anyone knowing about it.
Fundamentally my biggest problem is limited time. Thus I find OTS useful as a screening device to save time. I have two or three tax sale profiles I am potentially interested in. I use the OTS information to quickly get rid of the ones I am not interested in and to allow me to focus into the ones I am.
What I really want from OTS is a programe that will tell me what other people will bid.
-
Thought I'd chime in on the "lost/stolen/misplaced" maps/deeds/R-plans: I worked as a land surveyor's title searcher for a few years, and, even though signs are posted as to the enormous fines for removing documents from the Registry office, I've seen the following:
long-time title-searchers closing their briefcase, at the end of the day, on 40 or 50 deeds, a couple dozen R-plans & M-plans, etc, because they were "not coming in tomorrow", or were going to "work over the weekend";
a member of the public pocketing the registry copy of "his" deed, because he didn't want to pay for another copy, or bother his lawyer, and "his" R-plan, because he paid for it in the first place, even though the plans are all stamped as property of the Registry office; and:
title searchers, both local and visiting, stuffing deeds R- and M-plans all into the first handy Registry plan folder, 'cause they were "in a hurry", and yet, when next they cannot find the documents they need, bitching continuously about other people not replacing items where they belong.
Stupidity reigns supreme. Yet, this is not to say that the events, as g2020 relates them, are not partially or wholly true. I once had a municipal official disclose information I had to give him, to his "best buddy" RE agent; it cost me a $1.1 million listing, and it cost the other agent the price of a bottle to parch his alcoholic buddy's thirst.
I hope g2020 sticks around; if nothing else, over 40 years, a lot of hilarious stories must have piled up, and the "Susan's Surveyor's Transit" is priceless! Dave2 has had some good ones, and my friends laughed at my low bid because someone (the winning bidder, I would think) removed the rural road sign, which prevented me from finding the lot. (I must say, at this point, that my intended bid would have been top bid). I hope we hear from more "old-timers", they will have a rich history to relate to we "newbies".
I think it's wise to hang on to a good chunk of suspicion (or paranoia) because, from time to time, there ARE dark deeds afoot, and I've seen a few. I don't blame g2020 for posting anonymously, but I think you have to take EVERYTHING on this forum with a large grain of salt, and it is sometimes impossible to get the hard info you need to expose the truth as you know it. Sometimes you get the facts, and find you were slightly wrong, as witnessed by Dave2's feeling that the winning bidder got more that the 14 day limit allowed. We've all had suspicions about any number of things, in our own lives, that did not go as we thought they should, and we have all harboured niggling thoughts about what might have happened, but, when there are millions of dollars involved, those thoughts tend to get darker, and sharper, and keep us awake at night, wondering on how we can prove or disprove our suspicions.
I'm glad I don't bid on the really big ones (yet).
-
Notice that PFM gets particularly riled at the thought of any title search business being moved away from OTS. Makes you wonder? My experience makes me risk averse when it comes to Tax Sales and you should be too, at least until you have bought and sold something. I stand by my advice to use your own solicitor for your title search never OTS. Later some of you may be able to just pay your $8.00 and do it yourself as obviously many of you do based on the activity that I see in the Land Registry Offices. Your solicitor can not only give you the necessary facts to make a well informed bid but he/she can also advise you with respect to the need for, and availability of, title insurance. I only recently learned about title insurance from a realtor who had the winning bid on a house that I had tendered. This realtor used his lawyer to do the title search and then consequently got title insurance when his lawyer closed the purchase. You can only look at a tax sale property from the road until it actually closes - please notice that the OTS photos are taken from the road. In this instance the foundation was cracked and falling into the house, probably due to frost heaving. The title insurance company paid for a new foundation since this was a latent defect that could not be discovered until after closing. Your lawyer will know which insurer to use and can call their rep to see just what can be covered and the cost involved. No! Title insurance is not just for buildings and is equally important, albeit cheaper, for raw land. The last 2 years have probably been the best that I have ever seen for tax sale bargains even if PFM got nothing. It's over. You will now be paying about 80% of net realizable market value so you really need to exercise all the caution that a prudent buyer would exercise on an MLS purchase. Consider the 20% discount a premium for cash and a quick closing. Yes, of course there will always be a few bargains where you can make 10 times your money but they will be on the lower priced properties that PFM would turn his snout up at - and probably in the winter. Good bye.
-
This is not intended to be legal advice so I will only say that anyone relying on the previous post should check with a lawyer to confirm whether title insurance pays for defects to the structure or defects to title (or both).
-
since everybody else is weighing in on the discussion I thought I would put in my thoughts.
OTS is a good resources that makes it easy for people to get information with a few strokes of a keyboard. OTS is an agent for the city or region that is posting the tax sale. It is in their best interest to sell the property for maximum value and by increasing the advertising lead time, they will fullfill their mandate. This makes it bad for us "vultures" but good for the municpality. OTS works for the city that is listing the tax sale, not us. Yes they do make money from us by selling title searches, but without the inital conract from the city, they have no net profits.
I would make an informed guess that g2020 is correct in his/her assumption that money to be made is from recovering the excess sale procedings to the original land owner. The city keeps the additional funds ontop of the minimum bid if the original owner does not claim within one year. I would also guess that someone who has not paid taxes in many years does not have the required legal understanding knowing that they can be reimbursed as the city does not have an obligation to inform the owner of that right. By receiving top dollar for the property, the city itself has a very good chance of keeping the excess and that is were the value of OTS comes in to the city.
However, just because OTS are the agent of the city, it does not give them any more right to go on too the property as any of us have, it is still private property and they are limited by what they can provide (ie. pictures from the road etc..). It is a resource for us but anybody that relies on them as their sole soruce of due diligance is not doing enough homework in my opinon.
As for people being unethical, its just a part of the business. The locals always have the advantage in tax sales, because they know the story, zoning reg's etc... PMF1011 has teranet, that puts him at a huge advantage oversome who does'nt have that software, he is paying for information. Lucky for us that he shares a lot of the info regarding the 'bad' properties saving us time and trouble. This is a business and you have to pay to play.
From my limited experience in tax sales, I have seen people remove street/concession signs. I have noticed R-plans, and maps disappear etc..
the worst of I have seen is someone (the winning bidder) tell me to get off his property , threaten to call the police on me for trepassing, as he put up a for sale sign on the land the phone # on the sign was a automatic voicemall number that you can get for $20/month. I went to the registry office to look at the plans/deeds etc... and I refiled them correctly. One weel later I went back after he told me to get off his property and the plans were "missing". Gee, I wonder were they went. I went to the opening and he was the winning bidder.
I lost that bid but this unethical person won, 90% of the people probely thought the land was going to be redeemed but it was just a ploy by another bidder. From my understanding, he was a local adjoining land owner as the city staff knew him and were congratulating him on increasing his lot size. I have never seen him bid again but I stopped attending openings a while ago.
There are no bounds as to what level people will stoop to to make a few $.
-
I don't think OTS is a city agent but rather an advertiser to provide "free" advertising to the city for this particular matter. By providing value added info and services such as title search, it makes money from people like you and me. The more traffic it generates more likely cities will grant their tax sale packages to OTS to advertise on its website to attract more people to purchase relevant services it provides. (Some cities may not favor that idea to have many people's attention for their taxsales for some reasons, for one as PFM mentioned if too many people calling to check status they will get annoyed). (With city like Greater Sudbury who provides very detailed info on its website for its taxsale, you wouldn't need to go to OTS for further unless you wanna purchase title searches there).
I think people like Rob (this website), PFM, Frank and other gurus out there can be OTS's competitors by providing the same type of services too - as long as they are in it and can get volume (and don't provide false info to their own benefit for obvious "conflict of interest" reason ;)).
-
I agree that OTC is not always a agent of the city, but for their feautured properties they do act on behalf of the city. I am sure that they must get some sort of compensation for their trouble in marketing and managing the sale, I have no idea how that works and weither its a percentage of sale price or a flat fee.
They do offer title searchs on other property that they do not have sole rights to market. And i'm sure that it accounts for a fair bit of revenue. Yes there are other sites that offer title searchs, but I think that OTS as the niche market of relating stickly to tax sales. Actually its a great business plan as it offers a service to a very small market, within which there is almost no competition.
Either way they are in the profit of making money and offer a service that is fair and reasonable. However, I would assume that the majority of their information is provided by the city they are marketing on behalf of, so back to g2020's point, if the city offers bad information or misinformation or lack of information, OTS will forward that on to its perspective client. They are not in a posistion to fact check every detail--thats our job as perspective buyers.
-
As for people being unethical, its just a part of the business. The locals always have the advantage in tax sales, because they know the story, zoning reg's etc... PMF1011 has teranet, that puts him at a huge advantage oversome who does'nt have that software, he is paying for information. Lucky for us that he shares a lot of the info regarding the 'bad' properties saving us time and trouble. Frank is a R/E agent, he also has access to information that most of us lay people do not. This is a business and you have to pay to play.
Correction....at one point in a past post, I may have referred to real estate agents, and that I have done some work in RE offices. However, I don't believe I ever said that I was an agent....that would be a gross mis-representation.
-
notice that the OTS photos are taken from the road. In this instance the foundation was cracked and falling into the house, probably due to frost heaving. The title insurance company paid for a new foundation since this was a latent defect that could not be discovered until after closing.
I definately would check that..First Canadian Title... No one is paying for cracked foundations on a house and title insurance on a tax sale house is absolutely assinine.
The last 2 years have probably been the best that I have ever seen for tax sale bargains even if PFM got nothing. It's over. You will now be paying about 80% of net realizable market
There has been some good bargains the last two years..I got a one or two ..however I have no idea where this "end of deals" comes from. there is still "deals o plenty" I am sure....well that is of course if the evil corrupt treasurers and their co-conspiritors dont steal them first ;D
Oh Wait ..lurkers.. You are correct..no more deals to be made , go to Power of sales and sheriff sales..nothing to see here ..move along
and the "Susan's Surveyor's Transit" is priceless
If it is true, "young Susan" should hide her head in shame as Dave2 walked away with that island dirt cheap and he didnt know there was a cottage. I sure as hell wouldnt brag about driving 6 hours , discovering a gold mine then losing a bid to someone who paid less the 20 cents on the dollar and had no clue about the cottage...oh wait unless the treasurer tipped Dave2 off :o
Normally I agree with PFM but for my particular circumstances I would argue that OTS is on balance a positive thing for me. Note I used the singular me; that may not be true of all board members.
Lets face it , Im like the tourist who discovers a nice spot then complains when other tourists find it. They are positive but there will be an onslaught of low bids and even worse..megahigh bids
-
Unlike the smarter people on this board I have placed second a "H--l" of a lot more times then I have won one. My overall batting average well lets say; forget the major leagues I am well below the minors; maybe I might qualify for T-ball level. :'(
In this business all you can hope to do is keep trying, and trying and trying. No body seems to favour me. Of course my baby bird bidding strategy "Cheap, Cheap, Cheap" may have something to do with it.
The only reason I seem to win anything at all is that I am bidding so far up north that normal smart people can't find the place. That is why in spots like Moonbeam they use a flying saucer to get to work. If you look at some of my posts you will see reference to terms like 'moose pasture'. Fortunately for me I have not had a moose as a competitor yet.
My biggest problem now is that the moose figure they know a sucker when they see it. So someone has listed a property right next to one I bought at a tax sale on MLS at not an unrealistic price so if I am serious about this crazy idea of mine I should buy it to start a serious land assembly.
I still haven't thought of a way I can justify it to my significant other without ending up suffering an out of body experience.
-
Pfm, it seems to me that g2020 is talking about an island similar to Dave2's win, but I could be wrong; perhaps g2020 will throw some light on the matter.
-
I think people like Rob (this website), PFM, Frank and other gurus out there can be OTS's competitors by providing the same type of services too - as long as they are in it and can get volume (and don't provide false info to their own benefit for obvious "conflict of interest" reason ;)).
Actually in many ways we are all partners. If someone new to the tax sale process finds this site, chances are if they are interested in the process they will find OTS site and vice versa. The more entities servicing the tax sale property community, and the more rich the environment. I'm personally not going out and taking pictures of property sites of entire city listings, I wouldn't have the time or the interest so I think it's great a local business has decided to offer that information.
Is it just me or are islands one of the hardest to win at any tax sale? Bids are usually way above market. But owning an island is everyone's dream, I'm not surprised their is such contemptuous feels.
-
Pfm, it seems to me that g2020 is talking about an island similar to Dave2's win, but I could be wrong; perhaps g2020 will throw some light on the matter.
I was hoping This island was the one that was built on with no survey.The owner said I'll sell you that one.
Two islands, two tax bills both being paid until the original owner died.Of course the cottage was on the wrong island,the tax sale island.
That story cracks me up. :D
-
If anyone is bored in addition to the case mark mentioned these are worth a read
The first one involves a what appears to be a "sore loser" or at a very least doesn't know when to call it a day.There was probably more spent on legals then the property was worth. Definitely don't want this guy too close behind you in the bidding
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2007/2007canlii41435/2007canlii41435.html (http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2007/2007canlii41435/2007canlii41435.html)
This second one is the city has over billed him 500 K in taxes, and they know it ..and they tried to sell the land..the sad part is the moron city employees wont get fired despite mass incompetence. They would rather bankrupt a citizen then admit they are wrong. They will cost the city hundred of K in legals
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2008/2008canlii37607/2008canlii37607.html (http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2008/2008canlii37607/2008canlii37607.html)
Then the pricks continue to waste taxpayers money and make lawyers richer
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2009/2009canlii37715/2009canlii37715.html (http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2009/2009canlii37715/2009canlii37715.html)
Here is the island one
http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/1994/1994canlii82/1994canlii82.html (http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/1994/1994canlii82/1994canlii82.html)
-
Remember PFM - Some of those civil servants have nothing better to do all day than troll the web. And their incompetence can work both for and against you.
Of course whenever incomepetence works in your favour its called "Opportunity." When it works against you, there are a myriad of other words you can use.
-
It is ludicrous that they are trying to collect on a taxbill because he didn't appeal in the time period since he didnt get the bill untill after the time limit expired.
Due to the fact they sent the taxbill to the wrong location..and were taxing the wrong amount of land it is clear they don't have a chance in hell in court..but the morons then make the taxpayer spend 100's of k in legal defence (which he will get 50% at best back) all to cover up their screw up. They didn't change the address , so they will spend unlimited amounts of money on a cut and dry loser case.
Can you imagine they try to sell your house because they overbilled you by 1000% and you didn't pay it. Then they say OK , we will split it 50/50 ..Just pay 5 times what you owe or we will sell your house..then the pricks try to proceed with a tax sale..Apparently its OK to steal 500K worth of land in Canada..Anywhere else the employee would be fired..and possible shot by the landowner,but Canada ..they will continue the silly court fight for a few more years until no one remembers who is to blame..Standard civil servant move ( In Parliament they call it a cabinet shuffle)
Of course at the end of the day it will be a committee who will be blamed ..but they were advised by a steering committee. But it will all be done in Camera so no one can be blamed specifically.
Of course the lawyers will fluff this up with silly arguments and losing appeals as they bill 500 and hour ( plus 300 for the junior taking notes) all the while destroying a taxpayers life
Seems fair to me as we wouldn't expect a civil servant to admit they were wrong or to use the slightest of common sense.