1686 Heritage way, Oakville, Ontario

[netpred]

Thanks G2020. Very persuasive and well-reasoned. You my friend are probably bang on as always.

I think that some of the regulars here like me may in fact be rank amateurs compared to some of the silent real pros out there. You would figure that in the 5th largest market in North America you would have some serious & sharp players out there. Every smart guy (and gal) is looking for any edge. The reality is that these players probably keep a very low profile for very obvious reasons - they are more into making money than making statements.

I think that I will take a cue from Dave and stick to the "slum" properties and hope for a crumb. It would be pretty good to win something - anything!

[DRD]

A question to be answered by the former tax collector or anybody that knows... The package money 77x60=4620.00 collected by the town, can a person request an audit to see where our money went?? or why we had to pay? And if so how?   I do understand there is costs, it took 6 staff plus 2 security just to open tenders.

[netpred]

Dave:

I have already told you what I would do. Not a single lot would be sold without having first been developed. Go one at a time and you are busy for the next 5 years easy.

BTW, I still think that my estimate of $500,000 net after R.E./legals is more realistic

[Pfm1011]

figured on four to five hundred, so I got it right as well.  Much too high for a tax sale with this kind of history, so unless you were able to break in and get a good look at the inside, then the winner could well be a loser.   However, I don't think anyone is going to put that kind of money on the line without the inside scoop

Lets not forget that several town workers and fireman, contractors  etc had full access to the house over the years so they had much better knowledge.. ..still a crazy overpay


G2020....."One cheap bastard didnt buy the package".........seems to me that 77 idiots did buy it

[g2020]

PFM is correct again. There is no reason to pay for packages since you should always have your own forms, and prepare them ahead of time. In Oakville, during the last 2 hours before the sale there were 11 individuals who paid 60 bucks for a package and probably rushed to get things filled out correctly. At the previous Oakville sale they charged 30 bucks, and refunded to those who asked, because the property was redeemed just after the closing time for tenders. This time they charged twice as much and made it clear that there would be no refunds this time. I never buy the packages, but not just because I am cheap. If you buy the package and sign their form, you may have given up some rights. Treasurers talk to each other. If everyone buys the packages regardless of price then they may all compete to see who can charge the most. If only half the people bought the packages, then Oakville might try to up the price to 120 bucks the next time around. It was interesting that Oakville needed 6 civil sevants and two security guards whereas Mississauga needed 7 civil servants but only one security guard. One can only conclude that when you double the price of the package, you have to invest more in security to avoid the potential rioting.

[Pfm1011]

I'm no lawyer but I could see a homeowner who lost  the house, coming back after the reno and voiding the sale.. ( which can be done as a sale can be voided after transfer by fraud..) or going for damages as the town has essentially closed the bidding by charging for the packages. The "implication" is that you have to buy the package to bid and it is therefore no longer a public auction , but a closed auction with an admission price.


By closing the auction process or charging for packages the home owner did not get maximum bids as the town excluded bidders.. This would be like a bank selling a Power of Sale property on a members only site and not posting on MLS for 24 hours  as required by law


I bet that the home owner  could easily get 250 to 300 plus costs  from  town without ever seeing the inside of a court room.   Easy 100K in contingency fees for a lawyer with this one ...

Additionally the listing on the Oakville site had additional  info at the bottom : ( love google cache)

1686 Heritage Way, Oakville
 Assessment roll number: 2401-020-281-04934, PIN 24860-0018
 Two storey residential dwelling (abondoned and derelict)
 Assessed value: $566,000 (2012)
 Tax levy: $5,360.37 (2011)
 Zoned: residential (R5)
 Built: 1989
 Lot size: 50.66 feet frontage, 121.69 feet depth


The same  lawyer could also argue that since the town had secured the building and apparently replaced the roof , It was was not infact "abandoned" as the town had assumed the care of the building.     The additional completely non standard editorial by staff resulted in decreased value and was meant  to discourage bidders , Combine that with a 60 dollar fee and I wouldn't want to be the town lawyer on this one.  Find out any town  employee/ friend or family member bid and we have fraud allegations ( normally not a problem but add the intentional discouraging of bidders !!!)

Full ad from cache

Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - for immediate release
Sale of land for tax arrears
 

By Public Tender, Tender #T-8-2012
 Municipal Act, 2001
 The Corporation of the Town of Oakville

Take notice that tenders are invited for the purchase of the land(s) described below and will be received until 2 p.m. local time, May 3, 2012 at the office of Purchasing Services, First Floor (Finance Dept.), 1225 Trafalgar Road, Oakville, ON, L6H 0H3. A public tender opening will be held on the same day at 2:30 P.M. (local time) at the Oakville Town Hall, Trafalgar Room, following the closing of tenders:

Description of Lands

Lot 132, Plan M485, Town of Oakville, Regional Municipality of Halton, PIN 24860-0018, residential dwelling municipally known as 1686 Heritage Way, Oakville ON L6M 2Z9

Minimum Tender Amount

$101,661.58

Tenders must be submitted in the prescribed form and must be accompanied by a deposit in the form of a money order or of a bank draft or cheque certified by a bank or trust corporation payable to the municipality and representing at least 20 per cent of the tender amount.

Except as follows, the municipality makes no representation regarding the title to or any other matters relating to the land to be sold.

Potential purchasers are advised the residential dwelling attached to the land is derelict and abandoned. Responsibility for ascertaining this and other matters rests with the potential purchasers.

This sale is governed by the Municipal Act, 2001 and the Municipal Tax Sales Rules made under that Act. The successful purchaser will be required to pay the amount tendered plus accumulated taxes and the relevant land transfer tax and HST (if applicable).

The municipality has no obligation to provide vacant possession to the successful purchaser. For further inquiries relating to this sale please contact:

Erica Roberts, Treasurer?s Designate
 Corporation of the Town of Oakville
 Financial Operations Department
 905-845-6601, ext. 3055
[email protected]

Tender forms are available for purchase: the cost is $60 (plus HST) per tender package and the fee is non-refundable. To purchase, please contact:

Purchasing Services Division,
 Financial Planning Department
 1225 Trafalgar Road
 Oakville, ON, L6H 0H3
 Tel: 905-338-4197
 Fax: 905-815-2019

Sealed tenders in the prescribed form must be addressed to:

Erica Roberts, Treasurer?s Designate
 C/O K.Dooling, Manager of Purchasing Services
 The Corporation of the Town of Oakville
 1225 Trafalgar Road
 Oakville, ON, L6H 0H3

More information

1686 Heritage Way, Oakville
 Assessment roll number: 2401-020-281-04934, PIN 24860-0018
 Two storey residential dwelling (abondoned and derelict)
 Assessed value: $566,000 (2012)
 Tax levy: $5,360.37 (2011)
 Zoned: residential (R5)
 Built: 1989
 Lot size: 50.66 feet frontage, 121.69 feet depth

[Dave2]

Two comments:

First are tax sale documents copywrite protected; if not why don't we produce our own.  Would quickly put the excess document cost issueto bed once and for all.  

The problem I have with the building assumptions is the so called lack of structural damage.  

I just cann't believe you cannot heat a house for 15 years and go through 15 winters of no heat without (major)structural damage to a house.   I expect major mold problems as well, because of lack of summer ventilation unless the city of Oakville is much more caring for vacant structures then normal. Anyone care to bet me now that the tax sale is done and Oakville has their money how long it takes the building department to produce an order to comply document.  

I can't even support Netpred's claim of investing further in new structures on vacant building lots in many recent examples because all I think you are doing is churning your money and really adding to your risk.  

If you have a good gain on the land why would you risk it all for at best a marginal additional gain on the right to construct a building.  The average contractor profit margin for good contractors is only 10% and you pickup a lot of risk.  

Lets look at two examples to prove my point.  Oakville and nearby Cobourg.  For nearby Cobourg assume the land is woth $100,000 to $125,000 for an average lot size of 170 ft frontage with 175 ft deep. with the base development charge $4,000.  Can  anyone supply the comparable numbers for the Heritage way area Oakville.
    
For structure  assume a residential structure of 3,000 sq. ft. size makes sense for both.

Okay Netpred balls in your court.  For our usual beer bet prove to me why I should spend all sorts of money on new building structures.

[Ultraglide]

As far as the number of staff required to attend the opening, I am sure that they were already paid for their time, they just had to be there instead of pushing paper somwhere else.  As I said in another post, you can get a free copy of Form 7 here:
http://www.hamilton.ca/CityDepartments/CorporateServices/FinanceBudgetTaxes/PropertyInformationTaxes/TaxSaleProperties.htm

[Frank]

A question to be answered by the former tax collector or anybody that knows... The package money 77x60=4620.00 collected by the town, can a person request an audit to see where our money went?? or why we had to pay? And if so how?   I do understand there is costs, it took 6 staff plus 2 security just to open tenders.

Municipalities are permited to levy fees for services rendered...the Act requires however that a detailed account of how they arrived at the fees is to be filed with the Clerk's office for everyone to see, it also has to be approved by Council...usually a rubber stamp at budget time.  However, the details of how they got to $60 should be there. 

I never charged for packages, and PFM is quite correct in that it is a possible trap.  All costs associated with registration of properties for tax sales are chargable to the properties that fall into this situation...in most cases if you look at the details of the minimum bid requirement you will find that there have been several thousand dollars tacked on for these costs...advertising in the gazette, lawyers searches, official notices, etc (people who redeem their property at the eleventh hour are paying these costs in addition the tax arrears and interest)....I considered the cost of conducting the sale itself to be part of those costs, and included them for recovery from the offending properties. 

To charge anything more than the cost of photocopying at pennies per page, and a dollar for the staff time to run it through the machine, is penny wise and pound foolish.   Packages should be free of charge and available to everyone by simply logging on to the town/city web site, they all have them, but few know how to use them properly.  It is very frustrating to be talking to a tax clerk, a hundred miles away, and find out that their package is available only at the tax counter and for a fee of ten dollars, none of them take visa so they force you to make the trek to discover that the property you were interested in was crap.   

[Chinnno]

I didnt see 470 coming...

I will guess that the winner walked around inside.     The market on that house is 700 K to  750 max less all fees . Leaves 250 to renovate.   Too much for  a knockdown.  as the neighbourhood wont support a monster house  price wise      Im sorry but I see nothing but losses as this will need complete reno and replacement  of kitchens  all  baths etc. and you arent dropping home depot laminate or "tile of the week" in this place.

This property sold for over 1,100,000 I guess you were all wrong.

[ErnestBidder]

  Perhaps my staying out of the hobby for a year, or so, might, in hindsight, be wise after all.  ;>))

[Pfm1011]

I didnt see 470 coming...

I will guess that the winner walked around inside.     The market on that house is 700 K to  750 max less all fees . Leaves 250 to renovate.   Too much for  a knockdown.  as the neighbourhood wont support a monster house  price wise      Im sorry but I see nothing but losses as this will need complete reno and replacement  of kitchens  all  baths etc. and you arent dropping home depot laminate or "tile of the week" in this place.

This property sold for over 1,100,000 I guess you were all wrong.

2 years later, at least 250, maybe substantially more in reno costs.. 

with oakville , you could have bought buy any house for 700 k , ( cost plus reno cost) sit on it for 28 months and make 30% easily without the hassle of reno, You could also have rented it out for 2 years



oakville has gone up over 40% in the last 2 to 3 years..My house was 320 in 2004 ( plus 60K ren0) , I can easily get 900K.   of course the new house will be 1.5 mil so whats the point

That said ..looks like they made 250 in two years..not too bad