Water Access

[speedfreeksteve]

I think its like any other type of auction, people can get caught up in the excitement and end up paying more than the value of something because they let the emotions get the best of them.

I used to go to various content auctions just for fun about 10 years ago. What I found amusing is that certain items such as used computers would more often than not sell for close to the price of a brand new one. People seemed to have this assumption that if they're the highest bidder at an auction, that it's still going to be a good deal no matter what. Unfortunately, that theory doesn't work when multiple people that are bidding believe that same principle.

[gap]

Yes, but....if you are a machinery contractor, you can build a road in (long task but worth it often).   You can pool with neighbours (who are water access) and share the cost, or, you may find you're not far away from the road, and offer a contractor a deal to do it, saying you'll pay when it's done, (when you can quickly remortgage your property, pull equity out (because now it's worth more - having been upgraded to road access) and pay the contractor off, and be left with extra $$$.    There are many solutions to seemingly difficult problems.    I did the one above and it worked, although I no longer own the property, I did make some cash on it.
P.S.   Just reading Frank's toils and tribulations made me tired.   Hope you have a road access property now and you can enjoy it, Frank...sounds like you deserve it - you've certainly contributed positively to this forum....Kudos....

[gap]

I forgot...there's also usually a public boat launch on most lakes in Ontario...even the small ones. 

[serendipity]

That method does work but in many cases but you have to be very careful about the topograhy and the associated work/cash involved with such topography.  Research, research, research.  I looked at a water access that was close to an existing road but the grade was out of control.  Talking to local County contacts they said it would pretty much require dynamite to level it to an acceptable degree.  That doesn't even take into account of getting appropriate permissions to build private roads.  Who own's the land?  If Crown will they grant permissions?

Gap - What has been your experience in dealing with the MNR on issues like private road construction.  It was my understanding that this has recently become much harder for approval.

[Frank]

You are probably referring to this one in Algonquin Highlands:

Roll No. 46 21 003 000 02400 0000, Part Broken Lot 3, Concession 7,
Geographic Township of Stanhope, In the Township of Algonquin
Highlands, County of Haliburton (No 19), As in Instrument No. 120415.
File No. 04-09
Minimum Tender Amount: $16,052.73

Nice lake, but this is one of only two or three properties on the entire lake that are truly water access.  Not that it is on an island, but you can't physically build a road to it, although there is one very nearby.  To get to the that point you have to go up a very steep incline Known as Kushog Mountain Road.  The foot of the mountain is at the back of this property.  Check the topo maps at Haliburton County web site and you will get the picture.

The property is only .24 acres with 55 feet of frontage - it narrows at the back.  There is a one room 12x16 shack on it (in very poor condition), and the outhouse is toppled over (no room for septics), and there is no dock.  I can't understand why it is assessed at $77,000.  There is a marina on the lake and at least two other public boat launches.   I'm told that the shoreline is not very friendly and with no dock you will have a chore just getting to it - but have fun.

[speedfreeksteve]

I can answer the public boat launch question. Any lake beyond a minimum size must have a public boat launch. In my experience I've found that lakes as small as 1 km x 2 km all have them, so that cover about 95% of the lakes out there.

As far as creating a road to convert a water access property into road access, here's the issues you might want to consider:

-even if you have a road closeby, you would need some sort of a right of way to make a road going to the property

-away from the road usually means away from hydro/phone lines, and every 100 ft extra you are from the nearest hydro pole, then you can add about $750 to the cost of getting hydro to that property

-I've known someone that got a right of way created by "chipping in" with neighbours. After the 8 years of planning they still had only 7 out of 11 that would agree to pay, so 7 of them ended up paying approx $20000 each to foot the bill. The road was about 1 km in total. For them it was worth it since these were mostly nice, established cottages that had been around forever. But would it be worth it to pay $20000 to get a road to a piece of land? No.

[serendipity]

Has anyone been to that property???  All info I have received has said the area is STEEP...

[karlo_k]

Quite a few people have been there!   Around 60 according to someone on the lake.

[serendipity]

60 ?  Wow - that's quite a turn out.  I'm very curious to see how this one ends up?  I've heard there has been tons of interest from my contacts up there as well but I didn't hear 60.  I still can't understand why the assessed value of this one is so high though.  The frontage is only 55 ft and the rear lot line is around 30ft.  It's a steep sliver.  I would imagine there will be an awful lot of bids in a very narrow range on this one.  Ahh, elusive waterfront...

[karlo_k]

60 oeople is alot...but remember most people don't go by themselves...so thats about 20 - 30 interested parties.

[Rob]

I wonder about that many people going to one property asking around.

First, it is going to alert the property owner about the seriousness of the tax problem they have and encourage them to pay up (if the message haven't truly been understood prior). 

Secondly,  it is going to get a lot of the neighbours interested, involved and talking.

Third, it is one thing to have a person quietly visiting the property and perhaps visiting the property and trespassing.  It is another to have 60 people trespassing and attracting attention.


A better approach for all of your tax sale property hunters might be if the first group of people who visit the property when it is first posted, wrote a description of the property, problems people might encounter,  photos moght be a good idea as well on these forums.  That would help slow down the next batch of people who come the down the following weekend and those that follow after.

I understand it is a competitive process and many may want to keep their information secret.  But, if more and more people start coming to the property you are interested in, it is only going to attract attention, get more local neibourhood bidders involved and there is a good chance the property owner will wise up and pay those back taxes back (remember the owner can pay the back taxes + interest up to the sale of the property).

[Frank]

First, it is going to alert the property owner about the seriousness of the tax problem they have and encourage them to pay up (if the message haven't truly been understood prior).

Secondly, it is going to get a lot of the neighbours interested, involved and talking.

Third, it is one thing to have a person quietly visiting the property and perhaps visiting the property and trespassing. It is another to have 60 people trespassing and attracting attention.

Hi Rob
While I agree with you, I don't believe that you can stop it, and that was why I posted the info. regarding this lot after I attempted to get to it.  Not being a mountain goat, nor having a boat with me at the time - I gave up on it, but I thought I would give caution to the other on this forum.

Firstly, in some cases this level of activity does alert the owner (or a neighbour with contact to them) of the matter.  Normally, it has already been dealt with by the time we get there since it has previously been advertised for four weeks in a local paper.  I once had a reclusive lady chasing people from her porch when a parade of cars started going by her house after I advertised it for sale - it got the taxes paper, objective met.

Secondly, of course the neighbours are talking, they've been talking about this property and its condition for some time.  In the case of this water access lot the guy next door would be crazy not to buy it and make his piece bigger (and more valuable).

Thirdly, besides the fact that they are all trespassing, how many of the 60 do you think read this forum.  There are lots of people out there looking at this stuff, and in a location like this one (and on a nice weekend) - you have a recipe for an all out assault on the property.

Good idea though, and if I go and find a property with problems I will tell you about it - of course, does that then mean that if I don't tell you about a particular property, then that one is ok and I will see you at the sale - get the picture, it is always wise to hold your cards close.

[Rob]

You make a strong point Frank.  The local paper ads would have gotten the neighbourhood talking and the property owner would definately be aware of the situation.

I have a feeling this property is going to sell for way more then  market value just because of the water lot description.  If I lived nextdoor it would definately be worth it.

Holding your cards like a true poker player.  I'm just surprised I haven't seen a lot of misinformation about the properties, I thought a year ago there would be negative post after post from people wanting  to secure a property they were interested for a relativity cheap price.

[Frank]

Never burn your bridges behind you.  If you post a negative point - which is not true, only to beef up your own chances, it will surely come back to bite you at some point.

Also, remember that sometimes negatives are good.  Case in point is the property I purchased in Gravenhurst.  Negatives were that it had no water frontage, and the zoning did not permit you to build with a good view of the lake.  I have now had a minor variance approved to get a good vantage point, and the lack of water frontage in that instance is of no consequence since there is a co-op frontage with existing facilities (of course there advantages and disadvantages to that as well, but I think it scared people off).

[serendipity]

Rob/Frank

Excellent posts.  I've officially pulled out of the process for this one.     Or have I?

A local up there knows this property very well and is well acquainted with the surrounding land, roadways, lake, and its residents.  He said it is a nice enough property aesthetically...  once you are there.  His opnion that the size, grade and access problems do not make it worth much - "to him".  I take this with a grain of salt since he lives close by, going on 30 years, on a lake, with over 900' of frontage that he bought for a laughably small amount in the 70's.  So pretty much everything to him is overpriced up there.  If you have not experienced it, the local mentality up there is a different animal.  They can not understand why people pay so much for property. 

I also have a strong feeling that this one will go for market (give or take).  And market for me defeats the whole purpose for engaging in this process in the first place.  As someone mentioned, with a good agent and some contacts, you can still get similar property for reasonable value within 2.5 hours of the city that would require a whole lot less work and that is not water access.  I guess that doesn't have the same cache however.

I do find this site contadictory in many ways.  Not in a bad way.  It is a place where you want to go to for advice and information but who out there, in any business venture for that matter, wants to aid the competition.  I think this site is great for the actual listings, the processes involved, research tools and just plain discussion.  BUT, when it comes to actual properties being bid up on I think it would be absolutely foolish to listen to anyone on this or any other site.  Me included in the above.  Research is best done on your own.  Saving a few bucks and some time by getting opinions from others is NO substitute for doing it yourself...

Good luck all...