Ontario Tax Sale Property Forum
Tax Sale Forum => Questions and Answers => Topic started by: jude on October 09, 2012, 02:09:59 AM
-
Hi,
I need some clarification. Lets say there is a tax sale property with minimum bit is 10k.
From the title search, I fount out there is 100k mortgage left, city's unpaid tax & other crown lean of 10 k left.
1. If I get the property for 10k (assume no bitters). Then the city will give me clear title, ie the 100k mortgage will be removed!! am I right?
2. Then if I pay the crown lean of 10k to the court, then property is mine!!! am I right? Also, I got this property for 20k total. Is this right?
I don't need to pay the city's tax anymore, its the minimum amount we paid?
Thanks. I appreciate all your discussions.
Jude
-
Hi,
Thank you for your reply. I talk to the Treasury Clark and i didn't get a positive response from the Clark. They told me that mortgage and crown lean will not be removed from this specific property. I understood the crown lean, but why mortgage? I don't know whom should i talk to about this issue. If they are not giving us the 'clear title', then what are we getting with the tax sales? I really need some help.
Thanks.
Jude
-
The mortgage should be cleared - liens in favour of the crown are not.
Perhaps the specialists in the Municipality Act can weigh in here - I am definitely not a specialist as I'm still a rookie.
I recommend reading up on the Act which is available online I believe as a searchable PDF download; but from what I recall reading mortgages are cleared??
-
Great response Netpred - I continue to be amazed at how you pack so many relevant facts into so little space. I hope others will join me in an applaud.
-
There is a distinction between receiving good title and deleting instruments that are no longer valid. The obligation on the municipality is to register the tax deed. The municipality will do this. However, any encumbrance will still remain on title and will not be deleted even if it is no longer valid. This is probably the mortgage that you speak of. Your lawyer can make an application to amend the register to have this mortgage (or other instrument that is of no force and effect) deleted from the title.
I suggest that you do this soon and not wait like Dave did until you sell.
Netpred:
That smartness is why you win all the beers and this guy 8) and the guy with the big boat get all the beautiful girls. Hopefully I can survive on the scraps that are left.
-
There is a distinction between receiving good title and deleting instruments that are no longer valid. The obligation on the municipality is to register the tax deed. The municipality will do this. However, any encumbrance will still remain on title and will not be deleted even if it is no longer valid. This is probably the mortgage that you speak of. Your lawyer can make an application to amend the register to have this mortgage (or other instrument that is of no force and effect) deleted from the title.
I suggest that you do this soon and not wait like Dave did until you sell.
Netpred:
That smartness is why you win all the beers and this guy 8) and the guy with the big boat get all the beautiful girls. Hopefully I can survive on the scraps that are left.
I've won a few beers in my time, and I have only one beautiful girl.
Netpred is quite correct, as usual. Except that the H designation doesn't stand for Hazardous waste, it is simply a holding designation, presumably while they figure out what they (the municipality) want done with this property, or pending other developments in the area such as provision of infrastructure....in that case it usually means you gotta pay big bucks down the road towards the sewers and water mains. 8)
-
I've won a few beers in my time, and I have only one beautiful girl.
Frank:
Netpred elected to collect some more winnings from me this afternoon. Apparently he is in a rush to collect his past winnings because he will not make his customary trip to Germany because of a concern about a shortage of beer in Munich. See post below
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/09/06/160699095/achtung-beerdrinkers-munichs-brewers-need-bottles-kegs-for-oktoberfest
Just hope you and PFM don't start hunting down here, might start costing me serious beer purchase coin. Hoping with all the property available around Toronto or further west you get distracted.
One thing though we need some advice. A friend of mine bought a foreclosure property that was furnished. After the deal closed, the former owner showed up and claimed the furniture.
That brings an interesting question that Netpred and I could not answer.
For a furnished property in a foreclosure or a tax sale who owns the furniture once the deed is signed over to the new owner?
-
Dave brings up a point that all tax sale purchasers should be aware of. We recently lost money on a tax sale property where the former owner removed everything - toilets, heating system, kitchen cabinets, doors, etc. and claimed they were detached before the deed was issued. He was legally clean. Anything that is detached before you become owner is legally his, along with all the other contents. That's right, you do not get the chattels (contents), even if some of them were previously fixtures (attached). Mobile homes are also excluded since they can be removed, and now many tax sale notices in the Ontario Gazette point this out. Landlords have a similar problem with tenants who leave contents and then later successfully sue the landlord. In a tax sale situation the owner may not even know his cottage has been sold until after it has been resold with the purchase price including both boats and contents. You do not get the contents, period. In fact, if you enter a person's home after your tax deed for the home has been registered, you can be charged. You need a court order, and the sheriff has to remove the individual and direct the locksmith before you can legally enter the residence. These proceedings can be protracted and expensive so plan on about 10k per occupied residence.
-
Ouch!
Dave brings up a point that all tax sale purchasers should be aware of. We recently lost money on a tax sale property where the former owner removed everything - toilets, heating system, kitchen cabinets, doors, etc. and claimed they were detached before the deed was issued. He was legally clean. Anything that is detached before you become owner is legally his, along with all the other contents. That's right, you do not get the chattels (contents), even if some of them were previously fixtures (attached). Mobile homes are also excluded since they can be removed, and now many tax sale notices in the Ontario Gazette point this out. Landlords have a similar problem with tenants who leave contents and then later successfully sue the landlord. In a tax sale situation the owner may not even know his cottage has been sold until after it has been resold with the purchase price including both boats and contents. You do not get the contents, period. In fact, if you enter a person's home after your tax deed for the home has been registered, you can be charged. You need a court order, and the sheriff has to remove the individual and direct the locksmith before you can legally enter the residence. These proceedings can be protracted and expensive so plan on about 10k per occupied residence.
-
Thanks to the big guns for weighing in with experience/advice.
Much appreciated.
-
Dave brings up a point that all tax sale purchasers should be aware of. We recently lost money on a tax sale property where the former owner removed everything - toilets, heating system, kitchen cabinets, doors, etc. and claimed they were detached before the deed was issued. He was legally clean. Anything that is detached before you become owner is legally his, along with all the other contents.
In fact, if you enter a person's home after your tax deed for the home has been registered, you can be charged. You need a court order, and the sheriff has to remove the individual and direct the locksmith before you can legally enter the residence. These proceedings can be protracted and expensive so plan on about 10k per occupied residence.
G2020:
I think your post needs some clarification as it mixes an "occupied dwelling" with an "unoccupied dwelling" for which I will use a seasonal cottage as an example. Everyone note though this is a complicated area and advice of an EXPERIENCED lawyer should be sought.
Because of the complication I have shied away from occupied dwellings in the past.
For a continuously occupied dwelling you need to establish the status of the occupant. If he is the former owner he becomes a squatter and can be evicted if you wish. If he is a tenant he has all the protection of Landlord and tenant act and you have to proceed with care. I would recommend professional help in cases like that. If you want to evict start the process immediately once you get ownership as through neglect he can become a tenant. I won't deal with that option in this post.
I am not certain of the case law in this area so I suggest you proceed with caution. What follows is a process I have used in rental tenancy situations when a unit is abandoned and items are left behind. Generally in that case they have no value, although in one situation my wife finally got the fur coat she always wanted.
In landlord and tenant it is important to establish that the items are "abandoned" and at that point you are free to dispose of them as you see fit. For a furnished but unoccupied unit I would first take possession, by changing the locks using a professional locksmith, and if he wants accompanied by the police. Make sure you have at least one independent witness.
On entry I would take photos of each item and each room. Once you have done this post no tresspassing signs and post a notice securely to the front door that you are the new owner and have taken possession. Give your contact information. Take all the information to your insurer and insure the building and contents. Take a careful inventory of all contents and their condition.
If there are neighbours around I would introduce myself as the new owner. At that point I would wait to see if there is any response but would have someone check the place at least twice a week. Any sign of forced entry the police should be called.
Question for seniors would you try and contact the former owner 'Yes' or 'no'.
-
Helpful information . There are so many different scenarios to consider. Really appreciate everyone's input.
-
Thank you everyone for your discussions. Netpred, stop guessing my friend. There are many properties on taxsale. I been biting to many, but didn't get any yet. So, stop guessing about some property (with H standing). Well, let me carry on with my scenario. I did a title search and I got 3 things to clear on it. 1. Bank left over loan/mortgage 2. City owned tax 3. Crown lean. I knew that 2 & 3 will be removed once I paid the tax bit amount and to revenue agency. However, my issue is with the Bank loan or mortgage. I called the treasurer for the city & she told me that I need to pay the mortgage or loan to the bank in order to get a clear title. So, I asked my lawyer, so he got the same answer as well. I need a lawyer, who knows about Tax sales. Any suggestions about Ottawa/Renfrew lawyers.
-
Thank you everyone for your discussions. Netpred, stop guessing my friend. There are many properties on taxsale. I been biting to many, but didn't get any yet. So, stop guessing about some property (with H standing). Well, let me carry on with my scenario. I did a title search and I got 3 things to clear on it. 1. Bank left over loan/mortgage 2. City owned tax 3. Crown lean. I knew that 2 & 3 will be removed once I paid the tax bit amount and to revenue agency. However, my issue is with the Bank loan or mortgage. I called the treasurer for the city & she told me that I need to pay the mortgage or loan to the bank in order to get a clear title. So, I asked my lawyer, so he got the same answer as well. I need a lawyer, who knows about Tax sales. Any suggestions about Ottawa/Renfrew lawyers.
So hypothetically speaking about this property that you did not buy, you should see my earlier posts for your answers. If you wish, I can repeat them, but it is far easier for me if you go back to the first page of this thread and read them again.
If you see a lawyer that doesn't understand tax sales you can either look for another lawyer who does or ask the lawyer to read the relevant provisions of the Municipal Act. They are straightforward and any lawyer will understand them.
Good luck.
-
Good Morning,
I am looking for a lawyer, who knows about taxsales. Does anyone know/suggest a lawyer for me in Pembroke/Petawawa/Cobden/Deep River/Mattawa/Northbay/Ottawa???? I read Municipal Act, and I understood it; but Lawyer is important part on this transition.
I truly, need some help from the masters (yes, I am talking about you).
Thanks.
Jude
-
Good Morning,
I am looking for a lawyer, who knows about taxsales. Does anyone know/suggest a lawyer for me in Pembroke/Petawawa/Cobden/Deep River/Mattawa/Northbay/Ottawa???? I read Municipal Act, and I understood it; but Lawyer is important part on this transition.
I truly, need some help from the masters (yes, I am talking about you).
Thanks. Jude
Jude:
Sorry I can't help you on this one. The area you mention is not one that the more senior members of this board that I am aware operate in regularly to the best of my knowledge and thus I don't think that they may have knowledge of the good quality legal and survey resources available in the area.
My resources are several hours drive from this area so they will not be of value to you and are fully committed anyways. Usually on something like that private message is the preferred method of communication.
This also brings up an important point that if you are going to get serious about tax sales you should identify these resources in advance.
As someone on this board said correctly if a property is up for tax sale ther is either a problem with the owner (e.g. crown lien) or with the property.
I just hope that these legal and survey expenses don't exceed the original tax sale purchase price.
-
Netpred:
Following from last post, long ago reseach leads into some really old surveys. The measurement system for these is not as we know it today but in chains and links (lks).
For our usual beer bet off the top of your head how long is a Link. ;D
No cheating.
Dave2
-
It all depends on the name of the website that you are linking to. For example, this link:
http://www.metric-conversions.org/length/chains-to-meters.htm
is longer than this one:
http://landterms.com/Land_Measurement/more2.html
but this one is shorter than both:
http://thebeerhost.ca/en/LDA.aspx
When do I collect?
-
If Netpred gets a beer for his answer then I want one too! A link is exactly 1/100 of 66 feet. Most of the original town lots were 66 feet wide, that is, one chain wide. They tended to be two or two and a half chains deep, that is 132 feet or 165 feet deep. If you are reading an old plan of subdivision you will see things such as 1c on all the frontages meaning that the frontage is 66 feet. Also note that 66 feet is 4 rods. A rod is 16.5 feet, being 25 links, or 1/4 of a chain. Everyone looking for tax sale property should be familiar with these conversions since you will frequently be looking at very old plans for rural village properties. OK, Dave maybe my response is only worth a light beer, but a beer is a beer. Cheers!
-
G2020 is correct. You have to be familiar with the old measurement system because some of the tax sale properties are still described by metes and bounds. Measurements will be stated in rods, chains and links.
All of the old original 100 acre lots are 20 chains by 50 chains.(1320' x 3300') Road allowances and shore allowances are 1 chain in width (66')
A link is 7.92 inches.
As G2020 stated some of these measurements are used on old subdivision plans. Many urban officials aren't even familiar with the conversions so you have to do your own.
-
Thank you for your wonderful discussions. I did all my lead work, before the bid. I submitted a tender; hope, I will get the bid.
I read the municipal act & its all good. Still waiting for a good tax lawyer.
Jude
-
Jude,
Let me share you my experience. I had the same situation of the mortgage lien on my winning property. After the registration I requested the city's lawyer to remove it and they did it after a while. Luckily I didn't have to spend anything for removal.
Good luck.
-
A word of caution about crown liens. All the discussion has been focused on "liens" in these posts, and even the cautions in many of the ads in the Ontario Gazette only mention liens. Crown mortgages are just as big a problem, or worse, since they normally are registered by the Business Development Bank of Canada (formerly FBDB), a Federal crown corporation. My experience is that they are tenacious and expect every penny of principal, interest, and costs owing under the mortgage before they will discharge. A good example is the two lots on County Road 42 coming up on the Town of Lakeshore sale. Those mortgages become your responsibility after the sale and the taxes owing already exceed the appraised value of these technically landlocked parcels. So please, when checking for government liens I believe that you would be equally well advised to look for government mortgages.
-
This thread hasn't been used for awhile, but I was humoured by the chains and links references. I had to look all that up dealing with my father-in-law's farm estate.
I was going to ask about crown liens for child support owing. I think I'd get a good feeling paying that out if it wasn't a ridiculous amount.
So, crown mortgages. Do they show up in the title search from tri-target?
-
Hi Paris_Wendy,
To answer your question, any mortgages in favour of the crown will show up in our Title Search Reports, of course, permitting they have been registered on title or in the database of writs, for the specified PIN Number or Registered Owner at the time we order the Parcel Register or Execution Search. All this information is then displayed in our easy to understand Title Search Report.
Any new registrations after the Title Search Report Completion Date and Time will obviously NOT show on the Report
Also, if you like - you may provide us with more information regarding the interest that you mentioned regarding the child support owing, we would be happy to help to identify whether or not this is a Crown Interest.
Thank you for your question!
The Team @ Tri-Target.com
-
This thread hasn't been used for awhile, but I was humoured by the chains and links references. I had to look all that up dealing with my father-in-law's farm estate.
I was going to ask about crown liens for child support owing. I think I'd get a good feeling paying that out if it wasn't a ridiculous amount.
So, crown mortgages. Do they show up in the title search from tri-target?